OMG! I made a mistake!!!!! Please someone in control of this place read!!!

[rokuflame]

I need help I ment to Pop! animeobession06's fruits baskets art work and instead I accidently flagged it please forgive me! Don't do anything to her, it was a pure accident and my fault I clicked the wrong link. X_X *bawls loudly from mistake.*

[AnimeDudde]

Hehe, so considerate of you :P Im sure someone will read this and let them know.

[Kaoru]

Like they do anything about flagged items anyway...

[shadowmose]

Like they do anything about flagged items anyway...

They don't? That's good to know.

[AnimeDudde]

Like they do anything about flagged items anyway...

lmao yea, thats a reassurence xD Seriously though, Im dying to see their master plan (if there is one?) with the TP Spaces, the problem is impossible to solve without 24/7 mods or... deletion of the spaces. If only we had a few hundred more Paploo's

[Kaoru]

I wonder what happens when you click the flag button. Does it really do anything? Does some admin get an email or what?

[Ichigosmiles]

I wonder what happens when you click the flag button. Does it really do anything? Does some admin get an email or what?

Do you want to flag you to find out?

[Kaoru]

Do you want to flag you to find out?
I would but I don't want to sign in.

[Ichigosmiles]

Yeah, I know what you mean:rolleyes:

[Kaoru]

But if you wanna find my site and flag anything I have there be my guest.

[Arcademan]

Heh. I thought this was about me (Someone in control of this place...) but it's another web disaster. Ah well...

The truth is...NOBODY IS IN CONTROL OF THIS PLACE!!! :p

Late night...I'm tired...I'm saying things unbecoming a moderator...sue me!

[Andre]

Actually, I flagged it intentionally myself.

WHY?

Because
http://www.tokyopop.com/animeobession06/art/46607.html

stole from

http://www.tokyopop.com/YoukaiYume/art/7613.html ,which is one of the most popular images on the site. Notice AnimeObession06 [who wrote Obsession wrong on top of it] even left the sig on.

TP'ers stealing from each other folks

So, no mistake made Rokuflame ^_^ Your mouse seems to have been wiser then you knew

[Aratos]

TP'ers stealing from each other folks

And you see that as something unexpected?

Anyway, it's not reall stealing seeing as the copyer never claimed it to be their own work, see? Hmm.

[Andre]

But they never identified who the original artist was, linked to the original source, or got permission from the original creator.

There's a gazillion folks who jusyt put "I found this on google" or who put down "I didn't make/own this", but it still doesn't affect the fact that they didn't obtain permission to post it. And didn't acknowledge who created it. Posting someonelses work is still against the rules.

It's still stealing. People who post fansubs and full movies in the video section are also stealing. It's not like ignorance is a "Get Out of Jail Free" monopoly card.

[Aratos]

Welcome to the internet.

[Andre]

Welcome to the internet.

yeah, whatever Aratos :rolleyes:
It's not like it's any shock to me,
or that it's anything new.
Never hurts to remind people of Netiquette though.

[Aratos]

Netiquette's largely a myth, mate. Particularly in regards to the redistribution of other peoples work: communism rules, in a sense. The basic belief in freedom of speech, freedom of information and freedom of distribution is what holds the web together, and that's why the majority of serious net users just ignore such things for the most part.

[Andre]

Still doesn't stop making them look like idiots though. Libraries are what Freedom of information is for, and they go to great pains to respect the copyright of authors, and great pains to make material available to everyone for free, or at a minimal cost. Freedom of distribution? That sounds like something people just tell themselves as an excuse. I'm not really in the mood for pseudo-intellectual speals, thank you.

I'm a serious fan. One who respects artists, writers and companies. And someone who studied intellectual copyright a lot as part of their academic career, I'm not a pushover in these things. As an artist, I don't appreciate seeing the rights of my fellow artists abused. Just because a whack of idiots at NarutoFan or other such site do it doesn't make it right, or acceptable. I don't appreciate being talked down too.

[Aratos]

Well there's a pity.

Yes, intelectual copyright. Laws concerning such differ depending on what country you're in, hmm? And the internet is completely independent of any country (crossref: Decleration of the Independance of Cyberspace, 2005). Therefore none of them apply here. And that's just for starters. Which is better, that a medium of work be made available to all who wish it, at no cost, or that it be made only available to those who can afford it? Becasue the fact of the matter is that the former is what we support, the latter the view of the "laws" designed to "protect" the people.

And no, Freedom of Distribution is not an "excuse". It's a right. One that those of us who value base human rights hold very strongly, alongside freedom of speech, of expression and of opinion. Libraries can only go so far, and they're a non-permanent solution. You can borrow the book, but you then have to return it. And if you don't, you're fined. They also have lists of books that they refuse to supply, because they're seen as unsafe. Yeah. Freedom of information. Right. Freedom of information is defined as being "where information can be freely created, read, modified, copied and distributed". Do libraries allow those points? Only one of them, really. Publishers are a big problem as far as the first is concerned, too. Hence self-publishing.

Incidently, where you aware that the reason fan-subs exist is in a large part related to the fact the creators release the stuff to the fansub groups free of charge in order that it can be viewed in the time before an english-language distribution arrives? Hmm.

[rokuflame]

Really? *faints from shock* X.x


Actually, I flagged it intentionally myself.

WHY?

Because
http://www.tokyopop.com/animeobession06/art/46607.html

stole from

http://www.tokyopop.com/YoukaiYume/art/7613.html ,which is one of the most popular images on the site. Notice AnimeObession06 [who wrote Obsession wrong on top of it] even left the sig on.

TP'ers stealing from each other folks

So, no mistake made Rokuflame ^_^ Your mouse seems to have been wiser then you knew

[Kaoru]

Netiquette's largely a myth, mate.
A myth with it's own wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netiquette)!
Haha, I thought that was weird.

[Aratos]

Well of course it has it's own wiki article. Netiquette _does_ after all exist. Just that a lot of stuff people consider to be netiquette (ie "don't break copyright laws" etc) aren't part of it. True, netiwuette does say to follow the rules set by the group, but that's as far as it goes. It's basically low-level how-to-conduct-thineself.

Some people would consider hacker ethic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic) to be netiquette, for instance, but it's not. Same as federal copyright laws are not. It's a term the media latched onto and perverted into somehting it isn't, basically.

[Andre]

Incidently, where you aware that the reason fan-subs exist is in a large part related to the fact the creators release the stuff to the fansub groups free of charge in order that it can be viewed in the time before an english-language distribution arrives? Hmm.


Um.... where the heck did you get that? Some bootlegger in Japan tapes it off TV, converts it to a video file, and posts raws online.

This whole process doesn't involve the original creators OR their permission AT ALL. Whoever's telling you that is quite off base. There's several creators who have actually sued bootleggers within japan, and Japanese language sites getting busted to posting scanned manga is a pretty common thing.

Copyright law IS international. Part of the reason you don't see japanese companies going after bootlegging sites is a) they don't have the time/resources, and b) laws not associated with copyright make it time consuming, since they'd have to go through several channels to press charges. But that doesn't make it legal in any form.

And by etiquette, I meant simply being polite towards others.

[Aratos]

International outside of china y'mean. And it varies in different place: go comapre US and EU copyright laws. There're some interesting differences. And no, it doesn't count online. The internet is totally independant, that's the point. Sure you can arrest culprits, more will rise.

Finally: yes, certain creators don't like fan subbing, others do. Go do a search for it. There's a list of 'em somewhere iirc.

[Andre]

"Yes, intelectual copyright. Laws concerning such differ depending on what country you're in, hmm? And the internet is completely independent of any country (crossref: Decleration of the Independance of Cyberspace, 2005). Therefore none of them apply here. And that's just for starters. Which is better, that a medium of work be made available to all who wish it, at no cost, or that it be made only available to those who can afford it? Becasue the fact of the matter is that the former is what we support, the latter the view of the "laws" designed to "protect" the people. "

I certainly appreciate laws that help protect my work. I wouldn't appreciate people bootlegging/stealing my work, which is my property. There's better ways for them to share, like linking to my websites.

"And no, Freedom of Distribution is not an "excuse". It's a right. One that those of us who value base human rights hold very strongly, alongside freedom of speech, of expression and of opinion. Libraries can only go so far, and they're a non-permanent solution. You can borrow the book, but you then have to return it. And if you don't, you're fined. They also have lists of books that they refuse to supply, because they're seen as unsafe. Yeah. Freedom of information. Right. Freedom of information is defined as being "where information can be freely created, read, modified, copied and distributed". Do libraries allow those points? Only one of them, really. "

I think borrowing the book works just fine. You get to experience the book, you can enjoy it, but you don't end up keeping it. If you want to keep a copy, you buy one, giving the publisher and the author part of your purchases, which enables ythem to continue making product. With the internet, you simply download, keep forever. And the publishers/creators won't get their share of it, and it disables them from making new works. That's the crucial difference between libraries and bootlegging- Libraries respect the authors, and spread love of their works in an easy efficient matter. If you find you library lacking, show them some support, get others to support them and their services will improve. With public libraries, the more use they recieve, the more relevant they are.

Unsafe? Libraries are generally open to freedome of information, and are AGAINST censorship. It's not fair to blame them for censorship. With public libraries, this is written into their Collection Policies, which are posted publically. They should be able to provide any book you could ever want via interlibrary loan. If a library has a book banned, it's usually due to some parent-movement, or some politician. In that case, it's better to organize and SUPPORT the library then just moving to more sinister sources in it's place. When I've worked in libraries, I've dealt with user complaints, and the simple fact of the matter is that they're responsible for their own loans, and for their childrens loans. We serve the community as a whole, not just what some memebers of the community think we should serve. As such, adult/mature material is welcome if there's a demand for it.

God knows the children's sex education in the library I worked in over the summer is proof of that :)

"Publishers are a big problem as far as the first is concerned, too. Hence self-publishing."

Ummmmm 0_0 That didn't make much sense. There's publishers FOR EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING YOU COULD POSSIBLY IMAGINE. No matter how possibly offensive, unless it's outright illegal. And there's probably a bookstore for it too.

If you're material isn't picked up, it's because you face a lot of competition. SelfPublishing is a wonderful thing, and all the more reason to support companies, and respect copyright. Because the smaller, independent companies are by no means international juggernauts, or millionaires. And they NEED our support. Bootlegging them is a serious disservice, and the bootlegging OF independent comapnies, which does happen a lot, is part of why I'm so offended by bootlegging.

I just shows a lack of respect to the creators, and their work under the pseudonym of "fandom"

[Andre]

International outside of china y'mean. And it varies in different place: go comapre US and EU copyright laws. There're some interesting differences. And no, it doesn't count online. The internet is totally independant, that's the point. Sure you can arrest culprits, more will rise.

Finally: yes, certain creators don't like fan subbing, others do. Go do a search for it. There's a list of 'em somewhere iirc.

Actually, China does respect copyright law, as does Hong Kong. They just have to deal with large, criminal organizations who bootleg products [among other things]. It's only Thailand, and any bootlegged material made in Thailand is illegal outside of that country.

It's not that the internet is independant- If you're hosting it from a country who has copyright laws, then you're doing it illegally. If you're accessing it in a country that respects copyright laws, you're doing it illegally.

It's just that it's easier to get away with it online. This doesn't make it a good thing. It just makes it easier to make up excuses for illegal behaviour.

[Aratos]

Ok den. Give me three good reasons that we should be obliged to pay ridiculous prices to gain access to someone's work rather than just donating to them if we feel they deserve it- and don't say "they need the cash in order to be able to produce more", because that's propoganda. Merely that and nothing more.

[edit- cross-post]
China? Respect copyright laws? Pah! 90% of media bought in China is ilegal. And the government don't give two shakes of a dogs **** about it. I have chinese in-laws you know.

As for independance of the internet: you miss the point again entirely. Sure it's technically ilegal, but that's just it. We distance ourselves from that. In a unique form of self-governing meritocracy, we follow the simple point of view that what is and is not ilegal should be put aside, and one should follow ones own moral code. Nothing more, nothing less. Becasue that's what true freedom is about. Excuses nothing.

[Andre]

Because it's their work. It's work. They have a right to make a living. They have a right to control what they create. These are their works, and they should be free to do with them what they would like to do. And violating this, by taking their material without their permission, is an abuse of their rights.

If they give it voluntarilly, like say, a free webcomic, or a purposely make a song public domain, it's their right to do so. If they make it a monthly comic book you have to pay the price of a coffee or tow for, or a DVD of their animation, it's their right. If they wanna make it free, but limit it to their website, it's their right. Even if they want to keep it out of print, it's their right. It's up to them, how their work should be used.
But if they don't want you to use that work, if they want you to ask permission, if they want you to pay for it, so they can make a decent living, then that's their right. It's their right as a human being.


And as for your "propaganda" about making money off of it. ........Artists shouldn't be beggars, and their rights should be respected. And honestly, they do need the cash to produce more. The money I make off my subsciption based webcomic helps me to buy art suppiles I wouldn't be able to afford otherwise. If I was going to devote the time do drawing comics full time, it would have to be a JOB. I would need money to pay for rent, food, supplies. A roof over my head, a computer to scan stuff, clean drinking water etc etc.

This isn't propoganda it's fact.

I can't feed myself off of message board comments, and people "loving my work". There needs to be actual food in there somewhere.

[Aratos]

1) If I'm not making a profit off it, I'm not really stealing now, am I?
2) subscription-based webcomic, eh? You have no idea how much the majority of us hate that sort of thing. Not to mention the clever ways around subscriptions that mean the majority don't need to bother, but I digress. My point concentrates on big business, in the world of economics etc etc. Lets look at how the system with big publishers works.

Ok, so, publisher accepts book. Publisher gives creator wad of cash. if enough books are sold to regain said cash, they begin gaining a small commision. Really the pr-paid sum is what's important. If I make a copy of a book and give it to a friend, the author's already been paid for my book anyway. The author has his cash, the publishers won't notice if they're selling a few copies less than they otherwise would.

And as for the music industry, the artists get almost nothing from record sales. They get all the big cash from ticket sales. And I don't say a good way to pirate a live concert short of sneaking in and risking a huge fine.

[Andre]

1) If I'm not making a profit off it, I'm not really stealing now, am I?


Yes you are. Because you're denying the creator of their royalties when you access that work without going through proper channels. Proffitting off of it just makes you more of a jerk for doing it. And even then, you're denying them of their right to have control over their intellectual property. You'd also be stealing from the people who they approved to distribute their work, who paid them a fee for the right to distribute it, and who work hard to provide it to us in an authorized manner.


2) subscription-based webcomic, eh? You have no idea how much the majority of us hate that sort of thing. Not to mention the clever ways around subscriptions that mean the majority don't need to bother, but I digress. My point concentrates on big business, in the world of economics etc etc. Lets look at how the system with big publishers works.

My readers don't seem to mind one bit. And anyone who obtains my work illegally is no fan of mine. I do have on free series, but it's my choice to do so, and if I want to, I could make it subscription only, or take it offline and offer a print version only. Because it's my right to do so.
What's so wrong about me getting paid for my work? Because it is work, you know. Work that takes up a lot of my free time, and that I have to buy supplies, a scanner, and put aside schoolwork, social life, and other things for. Just like a real job.

And small publishers and big publishers deserve the same rights- there's always a little guy in it somewhere, whether it's the small publisher, or the hard working employees of the big publisher.

Mabye we should make your employers decide to pay you depending on how they feel like it, or just enjoy your work for free? Then share you with their friends? Because y'know, they shouldn't have to pay for it from your point of view.

When your argument gets down to "artists don't deserve to be paid for their work if I don't feel like it", and that I shouldn't be paid for my work, you lose all respect from me.

Ok, so, publisher accepts book. Publisher gives creator wad of cash. if enough books are sold to regain said cash, they begin gaining a small commision. Really the pr-paid sum is what's important. If I make a copy of a book and give it to a friend, the author's already been paid for my book anyway. The author has his cash, the publishers won't notice if they're selling a few copies less than they otherwise would.

No, they've only been paid for one copy of the book. You've made two. That's not fair to them. Sharing YOUR copy with your friend is perfectly fine. A Library putting a single copy and making it available for loan is fine.

Someone posting it online for hundred, thousands or millions to download? That's not really fair at all, especailly since a lot of folks will never pay to purchase that book, since they can just keep the bootlegged version. It's not really fair to compare sharing a physical copy of one book with sharing it with thousands, and creating a copy that can be copied easily ad inifinitum.

And as for the music industry, the artists get almost nothing from record sales. They get all the big cash from ticket sales. And I don't say a good way to pirate a live concert short of sneaking in and risking a huge fine.

...... now you're just grabbing at straws, bucko.

Really crappy, dollar store ones at that. Mabye artists get a lot, it just all depends on their contract, which they agree to. And they deserve whatever they get from their contract. If they want to share it for free online, they will. This isn't about money, this is about respecting their rights.

Just because SOME of the music industry is crappy in some cases isn't a reason to support bootlegging as a whole. Many artists have VERY good contracts, especially those who have their own production companies.

This is where your argument just falls apart. It's all a moot point if you have to pull in the music industry to explain things......

[Aratos]

Tldr.

[Andre]

Tldr.

"TLDR used as a response on message boards when a user posts a long or boring message"

Well, it's nice to see that's what you think of my post.
No more poorly thought out excuses/justifications left?

Oh ,and to get things back on topic....
http://www.tokyopop.com/animeobession06/art/

The art piece in question has been removed. Thanks TP. See, there are rules here, and there is moderation. Thanks for respecting that artist's rights, and deleting it from animeobessions06's account

[rokuflame]

Okay I see a mistake turn out to be a good thing in the end after all. O.o I just hope I don't have black op's ninja's after me now...*make justu sign and dissappears*

[Arcademan]

LOCKED!!!

And if you need an explanation on why, then you really don't have a clue.

However thanks to Paploo and Aratos, it was somewhat entertaining and informative.