RSoM UK Edition... with a touch of plagiarism

[danime]

Well, Tokyopop pretty much gave me the shaft when I contacted them about this directly by telling me to post this on these here forums, so I am positive that doing this will accomplish nothing.

But here it is anyway...

I was recently informed that the third runner up in the UK RSoM contest plagiarized aspects of my own work for his submission, Dojo Dynasty. Sure enough, after looking at the 5 page preview found on the online manga section of the Tokyopop site, I have to agree. Things like shading, character design, and panel layout are pretty much my own. Hey, if that was all it was, one could say that his entry was simply "inspired" by my work. However, some of his panes are a damn near DIRECT COPY of mine. Not cool.

Please take a look at the preview for his submission here (view vol 1 chapter 1):
Dojo Dynasty (http://www.tokyopop.com/mangaonline/series_page.php?seriesDir=risingstarsuk&referringPage=current_issue.php)

And then take a look at my manga here:
Lore (http://www.danime.com/manga/lore/01.php)

Aaaaand for a quick and excellent example of what I'm talking about, take a look at his page 3 panel 1 versus my page 11 panel 2. Hillarious!

So yeah, can't say I'm very happy about this. Although I've only read the 5 pages found in the preview, I somehow imagine I'd find quite a few more... similarities... between his work and mine scattered throughout the rest of his manga. Hell, the least Mr. Patrick Warren could have done is mentioned me under his favorite manga artists. I mean, he CLEARLY liked my work, yeah?

So, Tokyopop editors/representatives, if you could share your thoughts on this with me I would much appreciate it... yet I won't hold my breath waiting for an answer. ~_~

Regards,
Daniel Cross

[sonia]

Oh dear. -_-;; Whilst it's not as apparent/extreme as the Blade of the Immortal scandal of the last US RSOM, there are indeed many many similarities I spot all over the place. Very disappointing.

[Be Happy]

That's pretty shocking, but very difficult to know how to deal with. If I was from TOKYOPOP I wouldn't really know how to react - the manga seems to have chosen for its humour and comedy over its artwork, so it could be argued that the essence of what makes it a winner still belongs to Patrick Warren. Now the book has been printed, there's not much they can do to retract the entry. I suppose it means they're less likely to commission any more work from him in the future.

What kind of reaction are you hoping for, Danime? Realistically I don't think there's much they can do except apologise - there's no way they could've known.

[JoannaZhou]

If you want more reactions here's a link to the Sweatdrop forum where there's a spirited discussion underway:
http://www.sweatdrop.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4991

Obviously, it's not Tokyopop's fault that the plagiarised piece got through! RSOM has been out for months (with no-one noticing) and the artist discovered the copy himself.

[Mathew]

Is there any concrete evidence about the date that Lore was completed.

The deviantART: danielcross (http://danielcross.deviantart.com/) was only opened on Jun 3rd 2006, & although the [danime] (http://www.danime.com/) site lists Lore's completion as August 24 2003. All the comments there start from May 2006.

[emmavieceli]

Thanks for posting up. I'm sorry that you were directed to the forums without a full response from TP themselves. There are without doubt similarities here - lots of them ;_;. Incidentally - lore looks lovely!

I hope this can be sorted in the best way for all parties. Patrick is a great guy from what I've seen of him. That much I feel I have to say.....

[danime]

Is there any concrete evidence about the date that Lore was completed.

The deviantART: danielcross (http://danielcross.deviantart.com/) was only opened on Jun 3rd 2006, & although the [danime] (http://www.danime.com/) site lists Lore's completion as August 24 2003. All the comments there start from May 2006.

The reason why the comments start from May 2006 is because I relaunched my site on... May of 2006. Hence the comment feature not existing before... May of 2006. If needed, I have ways of proving the completion date of the manga in court, Mathew. Besides, do you really believe that I would copy HIS work and then go complaining about it to Tokyopop??

That said, I have no intention of taking this to court. I realize that at this point there isn't much that Tokyopop can do about it, what with the book being published and all. However, I would in the very least like a formal appology for Patrick Warren for doing what he did, as well as recognition from Tokyopop that he did IN FACT copy my work... and not a blow off reply telling me to post this on their forums. I think I deserve AT LEAST that much.

[Mathew]

But we still have to hear from Patrick Warren, besides since I last posted, deviantART: danielcross (http://danielcross.deviantart.com/) went from Five Thousand pageviews, to Six Thousand, more than some people get in a year.

[Drifto]

aw, this is a serious matter but sometimes when I read different mangas the same poses and styles constantly show up on lots of them , however this is strikingly similiar - almost exactly the same, he must like your manga.

[danime]

Mathew, since you last posted my devart page went from like 5980 to 6023. How is that extreme?? In either case, what does my traffic on devart have to do with anything?

[Mathew]

I miscounted then, but still...

No word from Patrick.

[tiana]

wellllll, just had visited you website(s), i am very impressed...great stuff

[Wayney pooes!]

& although the [danime] site lists Lore's completion as August 24 2003. All the comments there start from May 2006.

Prove it.

Open the properties of the files concerning this Lore comic.

Press print screen, copy to photshop and save, and post here.

Like this: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/WRH/scrnsht.jpg

Otherwise withdraw your accusation.

[danime]

As posted in the other forum, here is your ABSOLUTE PROOF:

1. Visit the following links as proof that my site has been around for YEARS (although it only goes back to 2001 even though I've been around since 1999):
http://web.archive.org/web/*sa_/http://www.danime.com

...and more specifically, this link showing when I first posted Lore on my site (view the top update titled "new additions"):
http://web.archive.org/web/20031004164221/danime.com/updates.html

2. Here is the screen shot showing the last edited date of the manga, as requested:
http://www.danime.com/proof/isinthepudding.jpg

Also, you had mentioned in your other post that plagiarizing someone to that extent would take an IQ lower than that of a glass of water. How f'n stupid would I have to be to not only plagiarize someone that badly, but then to bring it to light by publicly announcing it on multiple forums?!? If I were that stupid, I seriously doubt I'd have the manual dexterity to type these posts.

Also, to give everyone here an update from the other forums, here is a direct panel-to-panel comparison of the plagiarized portions of the manga (courtesy of Buuu - many thanks!):
Page 1 (http://www.danime.com/proof/dojo_vs_lore1.jpg) Page 2 (http://www.danime.com/proof/dojo_vs_lore1.jpg)

I also learned that some of the gags and story elements from my manga were copied as well. This is as plagiarized as you can get without straight-up copying-and-pasting the whole thing.

[crispy]

I dunno... I see some similarities... but a few of those artistic parallels on your first page just seem to be stretching it. You can tell he was inspired by your work, but not all of it is outright copying. It's nowhere near as bad as the BOTI scandal.

Your stuff's better anyway. You can tell that there is a definite influence because he, in all honesty, does not pull it off as well as you do. So, congrats on being awesome and getting copied. As shitty as it is, I still think it should be a bit flattering. And by posting this now, you're only getting even more exposure, which is good. Hell, maybe you should submit to RSOM later.

[headmistress]

First off - thought all involved might find these articles on "swiping" in the American comics industry interesting:

http://www.ninthart.com/display.php?article=1115

http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?article=1790

Secondly, I think it's a bit much to be suddenly demanding "proof" that Dan is not himself plagiarizing Patrick. It would be pretty dumb to plagiarize a published story, then come to the TP forums to stir things up. Let's hear what Patrick has to say.

Now, as to the meat of the discussion...

Without a response from Patrick we won't know for sure, but I'd agree that several of the noted panels seem too close to be unreferenced. Then again, several of those noted do NOT seem that way to my eye. The profile shot, for example - sure, he might have referenced this - or he might have referenced any of a dozen panels from Fullmetal Alchemist - or he could have just drawn it himself after seeing lots of panels like that. They aren't exact enough to be a full copy, there aren't too many different ways to fit that kind of shot into a panel, and there's scores of roundish-faced blonds with high collars in anime and manga. Others mostly seem to draw on a shared storytelling vocabulary - the panel with the two shocked people, one standing slightly behind the other, with the "shock" effect in the background is pretty much manga stock, and panels very much like that can be found in manga all over the place.

Even assuming Patrick did eyeball parts of Lore when working on parts of Dojo, I'm not certain there was enough copying to make this legally actionable. Not all plagiarism is full-fledged copyright infringement, and even the panels which seem copied do not seem traced. The page layouts are very different as well.

Still, it doesn't reflect well upon Patrick if the panels were indeed referenced, and I don't think anyone would claim that using someone else's manga as the foundation of your own "original" work is especially ethical. Not good.

As far as plot elements go - I think it's stretching to accuse theft here. Plot elements and gags are not copyrightable, nor is general story structure. Asides breaking the fourth wall that refer to the restrictions of the medium are not original to "Lore" by any means. Even if he was inspired by Lore, the final stories are in fact quite different. (Dan, you can read more than just 5 pages if you register with Manga Online.) I think the art similarities are inducing some hyper-sensitivities here - if the art weren't similar, I don't think anyone would have noticed the plot elements and gags.

Bridget

[Wayney pooes!]

First off - thought all involved might find these articles on "swiping" in the American comics industry interesting:

http://www.ninthart.com/display.php?article=1115

http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?article=1790

Secondly, I think it's a bit much to be suddenly demanding "proof" that Dan is not himself plagiarizing Patrick. It would be pretty dumb to plagiarize a published story, then come to the TP forums to stir things up. Let's hear what Patrick has to say.


Bridget

Yes, quite right, it's the blackest interpertation of events. ^_^;;

It was designed to either make Daniel crack, or make him determined (or angry enough) to carry on.

I'm quite happy now. I wished to satisfy things for myself as well. If they guy is willing to have me doubt him twice and yet still make a decent answer after having all that cynicism then his word is good enough for me.:)

Of course since then i have learned that a site did exist before i even got the internet, and well thats proof enough on its own.

The fact Patrick is nowhere to be found. I can't say i'm perticularly fond of people who hide.

I'm sure people dislike my approach to getting this info, but without it how could i be totaly sure who is wrong and who is right?

If the question is strong enough then you will surely get an answer either way.

I also don't mind appologising to the victim either. ^_^;;

I appologise Daniel. I'm glad you did answer the questions though. I can rest easy now. Appart from how the hell am i going to review a tainted comic now?

Has Tokyopop even considered wether they will continue printing the RSOMUK book in its current form considering what its supposed to contain. Should it officialy be recognised?

[Patrick Warren]

Hey Everyone,
This situation only just came to my attention last night. My apologies for not being vocal about it sooner, but I don't use these forums, i had to register just now to make this post (I'm pretty bad at being constant on forums in general anyway), and I've been totally oblivious to all of this. So in actual fact, I'm responding to this immediately.
When creating Dojo Dynasty, I had many many references to different styles works/mangas/comics to help me along the process, and pages of "Lore" were among what I looked at. However, I did not base my entry upon Daniel's creation, and did certainly *not* intent to plagiarize anyone's work. I've had many people say to me that D.D is basically "Atomic King Daidogan". This makes me feel awful, as I know creating my manga was definately not an easy process, and I worked extremely hard on completing it, even when I totally doubted it. Whatever some may think, it was not 2 months of putting together a pile of other people's work.
But I must stress that I am not a copy-cat artist, and I do not wish to make money or gain fame off the backs of anyone else, other than... my own. (?) Who would expect to get very far doing that anyway? I'm in the process of finalising my ideas and character designs for a new full length story with Tokyopop, and so far it's been very, very well received by the editor I'm working with. This, and the improvements that I've made in the past year with my art just wouldn't be possible if I was unable to develop my own ideas and skills.
But yeah, I don't wish for either of our reputations to be tarnished in any way - I've spoken to Daniel via email and I am in agreeance with him that we are just both fellow artists on our way to greatness (well I hope). I'm no *******, and I feel it's totally fair that I apologise to Daniel though. It's fair play to him. He's his own creative artist, and doesn't need to be accused of anything, as it's been said that he's copied me. This is not at all true. I hope that this clears thing up.

[Wayney pooes!]

Well done. Late is better than never, unless you work where i do!

You're here at last, yes i can except that people have lives other than spending time on forums, especialy if you are drawing comics.

It's a very close run thing. I think some people including myself perhaps thought you were a little too inspired.

In a tricky world we live in, but it's good that you have reached some sort of understanding with Daniel about all this. Just be careful though in future when you get that moment of inspiration. Did you see the comparisons Buuu made earlier?

Thats what sort of started alarm bells ringing. Agreed though when i read both yours and his comics these things weren't so clear cut to my eyes, i only noticed the one frame myself. Theres certainly plenty of it thats totaly your own from my point of view.

Just be carefull next time. If Danny had have been that sort things could have worked out badly indeed. Lucky he seems decent enough.

Nice to hear your side of things though.

[Will]

I'll go ahead and lock this thread since the two key individuals involved have discussed this offline.

I'm not sure why you were directed here, but the message board is not the place for discussing a concern or question of this nature.