His Dark Materials Series

[*Kyo_Fan*]

has anyone else read these books? no one else i know has so i have no one to talk with about them.:( they are The GOlden Compass, The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass.

[Blu_Moon]

I love Pullman's Dark series. I'm just finishing up Spyglass as I can grab some time for luxury reading (i.e., not reading for work.) I really love the world he's taken such care to build, and the character development that unfolds slowly. I like the symbolism in daemons and in the dark matter. Weighty stuff for a "children's" book. My favorite character is Will--considering all he went through with his mother, and how quickly he had to grow up, he's a very sympathetic character to me and a nice foil for Lyra. I really, really recommend this series to anyone who likes fantasy, historical fiction, and Sci-Fi painted with some poignant philosophical brushstrokes.

[Aratos]

I quite liked them up until near the end of spyglass, when I suddenly realised what he was saying. Something about The way he killed God off, whilst making it quite clear that God was the enemy just reeked of, I dunno, anti-religeous bigotry to me. And I suppsoe in retrospect the angels and daemons were already making that quite clear. And the fact he's openly against christianity. The way I see it, if christians don't insult his beliefs he shouldn't attack theirs.

[Blu_Moon]

The rules are pretty clear that politics and religion shouldn't be discussed on the board. So let's not get into that.

From a lit-crit point of view, I'd say that Pullman's stories bring in a lot of philosophical and religious elements from various cultures. His work dealt with the topic of corruption within a religious institution, and also corruption within political, educational, and scientific institutions. I don't think Pullman's work was so much anti-Christian, as it was anti-institution. The moral message is that the sentient universe operates naturally for a reason, and trying to pigeonhole / cut things away / exercise authority to mold something "sinful" into a “pure” ideal is to deny the soul and the fabric of the universe. It’s a line of thought in fiction, not an attack or insult on other people's personal beliefs in reality.

Again, this has the potential to be a great thread about a literary topic, so PLEASE let's not make this about religion. Otherwise it will get locked and deleted by the mods and I'd prefer that didn't happen. Thanks.

[Ban Midou]

i love this series and have read them all about 5 times.

[*Kyo_Fan*]

wow blu! you thought about it really deep!
i have decided to name my future children and pets after my faveorite characters.
i go to a catholic school so no one has read it & my family is terrified of anything with "daemons".
but aside from that, it was wonderfully written and deeply thought out. i want to get the guide to it. i saw it in borders once and haven't been able to find it since.
i know its been made a play/musical in England and i've heard rumors of a film. does anyone else know about that?

[Blu_Moon]

i've heard rumors of a film. does anyone else know about that?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0385752/

Last I heard, New Line Cinema bought the rights and Chris Weitz is working on the screenplay. Pullman is rumored to want Kidman to play Coulter. Should be out in 2007.

[sailortitan]

These really were awesome books. I wasn't too keen on the ending, but the religious symbolism jived with me. He thought his world out in very precise detail. Plus anything with angels/demons is cool. (only the former in this case). I think it's pretty obvious that his books have a message, and It disappoints me that the forum would ban a mature discussion on some of the religious themes of the book, but I suppose there's no helping. >:(

I heard a rumor that they were going to take the religious themes(irregardless of whether they are positive/negative) out of the movie, but I can't even conceive of how this would be possible, so I think it's just that--rumor.

And those ghost things that attack adults were SO F***ING CREEPY.

[Blu_Moon]

I think discussion of religious symbolism in a literary work is okay. But bashing/stating opinions about people's religious beliefs is in violation of the rules.

2) Just because you disagree with someone, does not mean that you are allowed to call into question their intelligence, race, sanity, talent, gender, religion, etc. Personal attacks are unacceptable here. That’s not to say you cannot debate a topic or have an opinion but when it comes to stating your opinion on a subject play nice and act professionally.

I think Aratos was very calm and professional in that reply, but I just wanted to make sure it didn't spark a debate about Christianity or start flames toward Pullman/any author that didn't paint any religion in a rosy picture. Discussion of how the text handled the subject of religion is fine by me, so long as everyone is mature about it and keeps on the topic of fiction.

Yes, the Gobblers scared me too.

[Gaara]

yea i loved the books till i understood what they were saying.....i'm a christian and i don't care about that stuff usually but saying what he said in the book just kinda turned me off of the series and what really got me mad was he blamed what people have done over centuries for there religion on God whic was just ignorant

[*Kyo_Fan*]

I heard a rumor that they were going to take the religious themes(irregardless of whether they are positive/negative) out of the movie, but I can't even conceive of how this would be possible, so I think it's just that--rumor.

i also heard that. they were gonna replace the magesterium with a company, sort of like umbrella corp in resident evil.

[dude]

I LOVE those books, my fav is the first though, "The Golden Compass."
Thoose books totally rock, i think i've read them all about five times already!

[sailortitan]

Well, some people may criticize Pullman for what are probably anti-christian feelings, but remember that this doesn't stop many, many christians (or members of other religions, let's not be discriminatory ^^) from criticizing rationalist thinkers, and in far less subtle terms. Pullman, at least, never out-and-out states "christianity=evil", but I have heard many, many people state that atheism is, and I don't hear much uproar.

Pullman's His Dark Materials, more than an attack on Christianity, is really an attack on Milton's famous epic Poem, Paradise Lost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost). If anyone has read any of this epic poem, while it is probably true that Pullman may be aiming a pot shot at xtianity* in general (arguable) he is *definitely* criticizing the specifically, literally Puritanical xtianity of Milton. In Milton's Paradise Lost, complete and willing submission to a often cruel and punishing interpretation of God(one who does not necessarily have the forgiving nature he is often seen as having in the New Testament) is considered the highest moral achievement and the greatest expression of freedom. Like old biblical passages which state that women should see their submission to their husband as a willing and blissful servitude, so does this xtianity see man's submission to God. I say this not to say, "OMGXTIANSARESEXISTLOOKIT!111"; this was merely the interpretation of xtianty prevalent among Puritans at this time (and among a select few current, radical xtian communities).

Another feature of Lost that Pullman is quoted as feeling strongly about (in aforementioned wikipedia article) is the role of Lucifer. occupying the place in traditional epics of the hero, Lucifer is presented as tragic and as striving for freedom against a tyrannical ruler. at the same time, it is important to note that Milton saw (and tried to write) Lucifer as being a hypocritical hero, one who talks the talk of freedom but ultimately wants to rule over hell like God did in heaven. Many writers, including Pullman, however, see Lucifer as ultimately more interesting and sympathetic than his ruler(God/Yhwh/etc).

In His Dark Materials, Pullman is making an answer to Milton's "tyrant-God" in the form of his own epic, which tries to imagine what place such a God would really occupy in the universe.

Another fact which may refute the idea that Pullman is necessarily a "xtian hater" is that he himself seems to ascribe to (the world in his book, at least--we don't know what Pullman personally believes for certain) a form of pantheism, a belief which is deeply spiritual, and which some people who were undeniably xtian in the past have teetered on the point of believing, if not outright doing so.

I hope I haven't offended anyone with this post, but I doubt that anyone can read Manga with a clear conscience if they do, in fact, ascribe to the kind of Puritanical notion of xtianity that Milton did and which Pullman is *specifically* attacking in his books. After all, manga is created by a group of people which are 84 percent Shinto/Buddhist and only .7% Christian (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ja.html); I have trouble believing that a large chunk of manga fans could be extreme, puritanical xtians as they would then be reading the literature of a group of people which they literally view as being damned (by virtue of their lack of belief). So I think I'm treading on safe ground.

*There is a false urban legend spread around that states that the word "xtian" has an epithetical origin; this is incorrect. It comes from the first letter of Christ's name written in the Greek alphabet, and ergo, is entirely an abbreviation and not an insult.

[Chiaki]

They call the first one Golden Compass????
That's mad, it's The Northern Lights here.
I don't like it when they change the title because it must have taken some time for the Author to think of it. Kinda like the whole thing that happened with J.K and Harry Potter

Regardless I love His Dark Materials. It's an amazing book and yes some people may take offense
What with the Blatant disbelief in God and Aetheism...you know I think that shouldn't matter, It's a work of fiction after all and just there for us to enjoy (which I do *a lot*)

[Blu_Moon]

Extremely interesting and important points, sailor_titan. Milton plays a HUGE part in the underlying symbolism of the series. In fact, "his dark materials" opens the book with a direct quote from Paradise Lost. Milton's concept of humankind's spiritual quest toward total obedience and purity is the very spine of the story.

Pullman himself is quoted as saying: In reference to His Dark Materials, "I said what I really wanted to do was Paradise Lost for teenagers."

More great info here: http://www.darkmaterials.com/sou1-1-1.htm

Chiaki, there is information here about the change of the title: http://www.darkmaterials.com/faq1.htm#1-1

[Chiaki]

I never knew that o.o,
We Brits lave 'im, bless iz 'art xp

[*Kyo_Fan*]

does anyone have any strong feelings about who should play whom in the movies?
i don't care really who plays Lyra as long as its not Dakota Fanning.

[Chiaki]

does anyone have any strong feelings about who should play whom in the movies?
i don't care really who plays Lyra as long as its not Dakota Fanning.
Second that, she's just too cutesy an actress. I think it will probably be a nobody but someone who fits the part perfectly

[Holly Short]

Wow, this is a really great discussion about Pullman's work. I really enjoyed these books. My husband studied epics for his senior seminar classes in college. One of the epics he studied was Paradise Lost. We both listen to Dark Materials series and discuss them at length. BTW, if you get a chance, the audio book is excellent.

My only issue with the books is how Lyra gets sidelined in the second book, but it's not really a problem with the writing, I just got so attached to her after the first book. I realize they are bringing in another major and important character. I wanted to see more of her, her character was so wonderful and strong.

[Joanna]

Just thought I'd pop in to reccommend the "His Dark Materials" audiobooks. (yes yes, I listen to loooots of books while I draw my manga).

But anyway... unlike most audiobooks which are read by a single reader, this one is read by a full cast, so each character has an actor/actress, and the whole thing plays out like an epic radio drama. As audiobooks go, I have yet to find a better one!

[*Sakurafairy*]

brilliant books, very intellligent, I loved the thought of the deamons and everyone having a death. The movies will be shite though, although I do approve of nicole kidman for mrs coulter. There are completely and utterly screwing up the plot line