Right to left????

[oni/tenshi]

Will Tokyopop publish amerimanga right to left?
Because I've got a really good story, and I would really like to have it published the traditional Japanese way.

It just doesn't fell right to read it the other way...:confused:

Please help!

[Nana Komatsu]

I guess if you draw it from right to left, would they really have a choice? o.o

[crispy]

No. You asked this on Manga Academy. You are writing a comic in ENGLISH. English reads from left to right -- and thus, comis do too.

[elisegrey]

Manga aren't made to be read left-to-right in Japan as an affectation - that's how things are naturally done. In our culture it's not, and neither does our writing read that way. Surely you'd prefer your manga/comic/OEL to read as naturally as it could?

Although there is a 'manga' publisher that sells OEL which reads manga-stylee: Seven Seas, I think. (Who, I just noticed while checking my facts, seem to be writing their own wikis now - how lovely. :D)

[SailorMaddieMouse]

Manga aren't made to be read left-to-right in Japan as an affectation - that's how things are naturally done. In our culture, it's not, and neither does our writing read that way. Surely you'd prefer your manga/comic/OEL to read as naturally as it could?[/SIZE]

Yup. That's how I see it too.

[kudakitsune]

I think you can do it as you please. I don't care. I make comics read from right to left as well as left to right. Which ever you want, you just do it . Beside a manga readers like me is used to reading from right to left so I prefer right to left more than left to right.

[Klawzie]

I'm really flabbergasted by peoples' insistance that manga be read right to left. I'm really lost to understand how that makes the experience more 'pure'.

I agree that since picking up manga that reads R-t-L, I sometimes have moments where I read L-t-R panels backwards. But I do the same with R-t-L. I'm an equal-opportunity confused person! ;) But I prefer L-t-R, really. It's more natural. Because, y'know, I was raised to read in that direction.

[kazuchiyo]

A good example of this would be Yonen Buzz... originally written by a German author working with TP-DE but written R-to-L, like most Japanese manga. So, of course, this is not an impossibility.

However... I think it's important to consider for a moment what the pros and cons of writing in an order which does not come 100% naturally to yourself.

[oni/tenshi]

A good example of this would be Yonen Buzz... originally written by a German author working with TP-DE but written R-to-L, like most Japanese manga. So, of course, this is not an impossibility.

However... I think it's important to consider for a moment what the pros and cons of writing in an order which does not come 100% naturally to yourself.

It's kind of weird because even though I was raised reading left to right, reading right to left feels more natural.
Go figure. :D

[kazuchiyo]

It's kind of weird because even though I was raised reading left to right, reading right to left feels more natural.
Go figure. :D

But does WRITING right to left feel natural to you?
Manga, as with all art, should be a natural creative expression, not something which you are worried about presenting as "authentic," or not.

[elisegrey]

It's kind of weird because even though I was raised reading left to right, reading right to left feels more natural.
Go figure. :D
Just curious, but did it feel more natural right from the off? Or was it something that became more natural over time than left-to-right did from the very beginning?

[Gibby Gibson]

Being an American, I would assume that any American writing a book, drawing a comic or any other form like that would naturally write left-to-right, for that is how we were taught to read and write. Just because what is associated with “manga” came from Japan doesn’t mean that it has to be in that exact format to be enjoyable.

When I started to read “manga,” it was flipped to be read left-to-right instead of being right-to-left, making it so that those of us who were use to the left-to-right style could be able to pick it up and read it fine. But as time moved along, I decided to expand my views and try some of the “non-altered manga” that started to come out.

I will admit that I like to read “manga” that came from Japan in the traditional way it was meant to be read; right-to-left, but when I pick up one that is not, I expect out of nature that it would be in the native’s natural format.

I may have gotten use to reading right-to-left, but that was from trial and error and patience; just like when I started to read left-to-right. It wasn’t natural at all at first either way; it took practice and participation.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t see the point or need to make something read right-to-left when there is not need for it. If I were to make a comic / manga / whatever you want to call it, I’m going to write it in the format I was taught to do; left-to-right. There is not set standard on how it should be; it’s just how the customs and society of those individual countries are adapted to read.

[extriandreamer]

I'm really flabbergasted by peoples' insistance that manga be read right to left. I'm really lost to understand how that makes the experience more 'pure'. .
the reasoning is because of the art. as an artist i can understand this because when i have seen my own art flipped i freak because i think, "but that's not how i intended it"

as to an english writter wanting to write backwards, why the heck! write it in Japanese if you want it backward!

[Zombie prom date]

Hmm, this is pretty interesting. I guess it doesn't matter how its written as long as it flows naturally and is appealing. I guess I can parallel this to writing in Japanese. Whenever I write in japanese I prefer to write it up to down right to left (genko yoshi). It's just easier to write because of the stroke order, and I find it easier to read. So, it just depends on your preference. You shouldn't strain yourself to emulate a style. If you can do the traditional Japanese format with ease go for it.

[dunno001]

I'll say that if you can pull it off, go for it! And I might say to those who say English should be L>R: Why, in Japan, a R>L country, are there some manga that go L>R? Why, then, could the reverse not be applied to English, and have some R>L original works?

Change doesn't come from following the norms. Only by challenging them, can you see what truely works.

[Loverofpiggies]

People should just stick to thier own culture!!! We are in america, and though our art and such might be heavily influenced by japanese art and comics, doesnt mean we should become more... eek... should I say wannabe...? I mean, thats kid of what it is when you make things the japanese way. Just like living in america yet publishing a book set in japan, just form things youve learned in manga. IT DOESNT WORK WELL, and most people then find you to be, yes, a japanese wannabe. Just like how I wont touch some american titles because they are just trying to copy the japanese culture. I've seen enough of the japanese culture, I want some good old american! XD

[Loverofpiggies]

Being an American, I would assume that any American writing a book, drawing a comic or any other form like that would naturally write left-to-right, for that is how we were taught to read and write. Just because what is associated with “manga” came from Japan doesn’t mean that it has to be in that exact format to be enjoyable.

When I started to read “manga,” it was flipped to be read left-to-right instead of being right-to-left, making it so that those of us who were use to the left-to-right style could be able to pick it up and read it fine. But as time moved along, I decided to expand my views and try some of the “non-altered manga” that started to come out.

I will admit that I like to read “manga” that came from Japan in the traditional way it was meant to be read; right-to-left, but when I pick up one that is not, I expect out of nature that it would be in the native’s natural format.

I may have gotten use to reading right-to-left, but that was from trial and error and patience; just like when I started to read left-to-right. It wasn’t natural at all at first either way; it took practice and participation.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t see the point or need to make something read right-to-left when there is not need for it. If I were to make a comic / manga / whatever you want to call it, I’m going to write it in the format I was taught to do; left-to-right. There is not set standard on how it should be; it’s just how the customs and society of those individual countries are adapted to read. w00T! XD Yes, perfectly said!

[UrbanRevolution]

People should just stick to thier own culture!!! We are in america, and though our art and such might be heavily influenced by japanese art and comics, doesnt mean we should become more... eek... should I say wannabe...? I mean, thats kid of what it is when you make things the japanese way. Just like living in america yet publishing a book set in japan, just form things youve learned in manga. IT DOESNT WORK WELL, and most people then find you to be, yes, a japanese wannabe. Just like how I wont touch some american titles because they are just trying to copy the japanese culture. I've seen enough of the japanese culture, I want some good old american! XD

Ya i kinda take offence to your comment, it seems very red neck White America.
"Well yall should speak English, this is America!" You sound like my dad, and yes I’m a cowboy. I live in LA, so I’m in a melting pot of culture.

From a marketing point of view it makes since to appeal to a world wide audience, not just America.

i think if you want to have your book sell in Japan it would be wise to do it in the traditional format R2L. If you do draw it L2R you can always flip it, but it doesn't always look right.......just my 2 cents.

[crispy]

Ya i kinda take offence to your comment, it seems very red neck White America.
"Well yall should speak English, this is America!" You sound like my dad, and yes I’m a cowboy. I live in LA, so I’m in a melting pot of culture.

From a marketing point of view it makes since to appeal to a world wide audience, not just America.

i think if you want to have your book sell in Japan it would be wise to do it in the traditional format R2L. If you do draw it L2R you can always flip it, but it doesn't always look right.......just my 2 cents.


It's been made pretty clear by the Japanese that they generally do not want our books. They’ve got enough manga in Japan from their own natives – why would they want our Nisei books? We should focus more on expanding the western comic world, rather than trying to break into the eastern world. At that, it doesn't make marketing sense, if you're speaking of world wide distribution, to publish something that reads from right to left. The majority of the world's languages read from left to right. The only modern languages I can think of that read from right to left are Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, and Hebrew, and even so, there's not really a very big market for comics in the Arabic or Israeli world (unless maybe they're hate comics aimed at each other -_-).

In my opinion, sticking to your own culture’s ways of functioning will help you to more easily tell your story in a visually pleasing manner. You could read all the manga you want, but the fact that you weren’t raised reading backwards puts you at a disadvantage anyway, whether you believe it or not. The Japanese write their comics from right to left because they are Japanese, and that’s the way their language goes. Just like they write their 4-koma comic strips – they run vertically, rather than horizontally, because that’s how their language is read. Is there anything about which side you open your book on that makes it a better read? No. However, using a familiar reading style when creating your comic will make the job easier. Even so, direction wont matter much if you’re a crappy storyteller to begin with. Learn how to tell a story in your own direction first – then maybe … MAYBE contemplate switching. Even so, if you're ambition is to get published in Japan -- why bother writing it their way? They get published here, but they don't write left to right for us, except for, as mentioned before, books that are for some reason published left to right.

IMO, direction doesn't matter as much as storytelling -- and storytelling can be directly affected by your familiarity with your own language and how people of your own culture's eyes move across a page.

[MomoxD]

Left to Right, Right to Left, doesn't matter to me. I've been introduced to both (they weren't manga) since I was little . =D Both are natural to me.

[PunkR0ckPrinc322]

I like the Right to Left format partly because I like to try new things and living in America, we are secluded to other cultures and ways of doing things, so I like to try new things. I like the right to left format, it's different and fun.

[DKW 001]

oni/tenshi - Uh...I don't have an inside track on Tokyopop policy or anything, but it's a safe bet that they'll publish it the way it was drawn. And there's really no reason not to.

Accepting different cultures means accepting ALL cultures. I see no need to belittle my culture to respect another.

[Libby]

Draw it however you like, it's a free country.

But I won't read an OEL manga that reads R-t-L. It's just way too FAKE.

[kudakitsune]

Draw it however you like, it's a free country.

But I won't read an OEL manga that reads R-t-L. It's just way too FAKE.

It depends on who the artist is. Some may not have the talent for making RTL but some does. I feel negative about your comment.

It doesn't matter RTL or LTR. I wouldn't mind reading OEL manga LTR or RTL. About this whole culture thing, it doesn't really matters. There are tons of American comics and there are a tons of Jap. mangas. The cool thing is that we can combine American and Japanese together. That is not wannabe.

[Electrik_Mayhem]

From an artistic standpoint you should be free to draw it as you like. It could even be used to make an artistic point - like if you write a manga about an exchange student in Japan you could use the right-to-left format to reinforce that the main character is adapting to a new culture.

However, it would be hard to market an OEL manga that's right-to-left. English reads left-to-right, that's what people naturally expect. Readers familiar with manga would wonder why a non-translated book would have that format (and might write you off as a wanna-be without even looking at the story) while people who've never read manga would wonder why the book is "backwards."

By the way oni/tenshi, are you left-handed?

[YuKitsuneYoukai]

*bows to all in deep respect*

"Yes, I think so, I have they're magazine that reads both ways and switches from one to the other in the middle. I also have a few Tokyopop manga that read from right to left. Such as Loveless.."

>.>

<.<

"Yes.. I'll admit it.. I'm obsessed with Loveless!"

[Fanservice Alchemist]

I don't see what the big fuss is. Sure, it took me a little bit to get used to reading from right to left at first, but now it's something I don't even think about. It's become second nature to me. When I put down manga and pick up a regular U.S. comic book, I simply go back to reading from left ro right just as easily.

To me, reading manga in it's original visual form is the next best thing to reading it in its original language for those of us who don't know how to read Japanese. It's also one of the things that sets manga apart from traditional U.S. comics...

It's all about the flava, baby!
:cool:

[GracieLizzy]

there's not really a very big market for comics in the Arabic or Israeli world (unless maybe they're hate comics aimed at each other -_-).

It may not be big, but it's there:

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/i/israel.htm
http://www.akcomics.com/

Anyway I'd rather an OEL manga read left-to-right for many of the reasons others' have already said. Just as I don't like flipped manga, right-to-left OEL would feel perculiar to me, as Japanese people read right-to-left so their comics do English speakers read left-to-right so our comics do. But if you really want to you can write it right-to-left, but be understanding if people find your comic odd for it.

[lord_neko_fuffy]

Will Tokyopop publish amerimanga right to left?
Because I've got a really good story, and I would really like to have it published the traditional Japanese way.

It just doesn't fell right to read it the other way...:confused:

Please help!
i have the same problem....i've grown use to the right to left format and thuse i create both orinial manga and dosshiji in the japanese style...
so if they refuse to publish it that way both you and i will have to chage our habbit...

btw Raiku loves you....now stand still and let him slice you to bits...

[YuKitsuneYoukai]

*bows to all in deep respect*

"I agree with the second-nature thing, I read a lot of manga as well as a lot of 'normal' novels such as the DT series. But my own english teachers can't imagine reading from right to left. But it's really easy."

[Tyleete]

You know? As long as you're not doing it to try and just 'be like the Japanese', its good. If that's what you honestly like.
Me personally? I prefer the 'authentic manga', as they call it.
But for me, it's just easier. I'm Jewish, and that's the way our writing is.
I still find it funny when a friend who borrows my manga says she has trouble reading r to l. I'm like...You think that's hard? Try learning to read the actual words r to l too! heh. It was difficult, as it was my second language.
I hate going back and forth. Having some manga r to l, then picking up some going l to r. Oh well. If it's what you want? Go for it. I'm with the person who said, art is an expression of yourself. Do what feels natural. And good luck ;)

[UrbanRevolution]

It's been made pretty clear by the Japanese that they generally do not want our books. They’ve got enough manga in Japan from their own natives – why would they want our Nisei books? We should focus more on expanding the western comic world, rather than trying to break into the eastern world.

it's funny that Japan wants american Music, Movies, clothing, DJ's, Animation (disney).....but not our manga? i understand not wanting Super heros... but other then that....prove it.

even if you can....it dosn't mean it can't happen.

If i only wanted an american audience, i would do nothing but Super hero books. i think the main reason to do Manga is to get published in Japan.

it's just a matter of time before they let's in.

[crispy]

it's funny that Japan wants american Music, Movies, clothing, DJ's, Animation (disney).....but not our manga? i understand not wanting Super heros... but other then that....prove it.

even if you can....it dosn't mean it can't happen.

If i only wanted an american audience, i would do nothing but Super hero books. i think the main reason to do Manga is to get published in Japan.

it's just a matter of time before they let's in.

You have a warped view on this whole comics industry. First of all, to even assume that the only comics that appeal to Americans are superhero comics is inordinately asinine. You're American -- I assume you must only like superhero spandex comics too. At that, to compare Japan’s desire for western things like movies and music to their desire for our comics is unrealistic. The industries for movies in countries other than American (and I guess India) are very small. Even in Europe, they import movies from each other. The same can really be said for music. Sure, other countries have their own music industries – but since we’re America, we inundate their markets with our own stuff. So, your attempt to debase my argument really doesn’t work.

If your main goal for drawing manga is to get published in Japan, I really hope that you never get a book deal. If you don't love comics regardless of orientation or origin, then you're not going to be a good comic creator. To limit yourself so strictly to the goal of simply being published in Japan only serves to stifle your own creativity.

Something that leads me to believe that the Japanese market doesn't want our comics is that Tokyopop isn't even publishing any OEL in Japan yet. (Or at least, nothing is listed on their Japanese headquarters’ site.) At that -- you act as though people haven't been trying for years and years to make the break. For the past ten years we have had American manga creators. Their successes have been few and far between -- and none have achieved a great deal of notoriety here or overseas. I’m not saying it’s impossible to be published in Japan, however; I am saying that you shouldn’t alienate your American audience on the off chance that you might, though.

[UrbanRevolution]

How well did the Spawn Manga sale in Japan?

you seem to be a very negitave person....who think he know everything. kinda sad.

[Ayokillyou]

Japanese comics are a lot of fun. But there comes a time in every non-Japanese fan's life when s/he has to accept that they DON'T LIVE IN JAPAN, and move on.

There's no point in drawing comics right to left if your culture reads from left to right. If you're making your own native comics, why would you take on the cultural byproducts of another culture? It's senseless, and more than a little bit sad. First of all, if the Japanese wanted to import your comics, they'd read them (in Japanese translation) from left to right just as we read their books from right to left. It's not a big deal. Second of all, it makes you look desperate for acceptance from a group of people who frankly don't need you.

I don't think that I can even fathom how large and all-encompassing the comics industry in Japan is. All I know is that they more or less have all the comics they're going to need. If a breakthrough happens and they import some American work (it does happen from time to rare time), they'll accomodate the work, but drawing your comic "like the Japanese do" won't get you any closer.

Be yourself. Be yourself in spite of yourself. It's not a bad thing to embrace your own culture. Learn to separate.

Separation:

There is a huge "exotic" factor coming into play here. A lot of people like the "strangeness" and "differentness" and the "uniqueness" of Japanese work...and that's understandable. They're coming from a different culture than we are and with a different set of standards, rules and expectations. So when we read their books, even though they're translated, we read them through multiple cultural filters. The filter of our own culture, the filter of the Japanese culture and the difference between those is where the sense of magical wonder at the "exoticness" of it all comes into play.

But being exotic is a shallow reason to like something, and more often than not, the further you study a culture, the less exotic it seems (because the perception of exoticness is rooted in the ignorance of another culture--ignorance not in an insulting way, but in the sense that we aren't familiar with the culture). The more manga one reads, the longer one studies Japan and Japanese culture, the less strange and magical it all seems and the more normal and mundane it appears. And that's about the point of experience when a person can be said to have fully absorbed and digested the culture.


In any case, if your language is read from left-to-right, you should draw your comics from left-to-right. I mean, really.

[crispy]

I like to think that I'm realistic.

[UrbanRevolution]

I like to think that I'm realistic.
based on what?

[Klawzie]

Based on the fact that he has some degree (I'm not sure to the exact extent) of experience in the comic industry, seems to have a fairly good mass of tissue between his ears, and has done a bit of research into the industry he hopes to work in.

I don't always agree with Crispy, but from my own experiences and research, he's quite often correct.

[ParaKiss]

Looks like an argument could start any moment... So I'm here to warn you to be nice.

I know you're all on topic but some people have been a bit... blunt in their replies. Just don't start flaming one another.

[UrbanRevolution]

That's totally valid. To me it seem like there are a lot of cast Judgments based on nothing more then opinion.

It’s fine to have you opinion. I'm all for it! It's the negative matter of fact way it's voiced that irritates me.

We're all here to be in a positive environment, get constructive criticism, and grow.
If you going to judge something, please don’t just make a blank statement
“You’re wrong.” This doesn’t help anyone.

Base it on something valid; give me a URL, a book to look into, something other then a negative remark. Be constructive not destructive.

As a creative person I’m doing my best to make Art. (L2R, R2L, Manga, Comics, Music whatever…) For anyone who doesn’t know me to make a judgment about me or on what I feel is the right path is nothing more then frustrating.

[Alphonse Elric]

if u draw it from right to left they should publish it from right to left

[oni/tenshi]

Just curious, but did it feel more natural right from the off? Or was it something that became more natural over time than left-to-right did from the very beginning?

It felt natural from the begining.

[Alphonse Elric]

i can't read manga that go from left to right.. it just confusses me to much

[oni/tenshi]

From an artistic standpoint you should be free to draw it as you like. It could even be used to make an artistic point - like if you write a manga about an exchange student in Japan you could use the right-to-left format to reinforce that the main character is adapting to a new culture.

However, it would be hard to market an OEL manga that's right-to-left. English reads left-to-right, that's what people naturally expect. Readers familiar with manga would wonder why a non-translated book would have that format (and might write you off as a wanna-be without even looking at the story) while people who've never read manga would wonder why the book is "backwards."

By the way oni/tenshi, are you left-handed?
I'm right handed.

[extriandreamer]

i just want to know why you want to publish r-l. is there a valid reason, or just because it is cool? i understand that everyone is free to do as they wish and I encourage you to stick with your dreams, but make sure they have a strong, logical reason.

[DescentfromOblivion]

i think the only reasom why some people want to get publish in jp is to feel there better, and to be validated to be "REAL" manga.
dont get me rong that would cool to be publish in jp but just to try and be better than other people is the rong reason to do it.

thats just my opinion

[UrbanRevolution]

i'm not into the whole ego trip thing.
i know i'm not the best and i know i never will be. All i can hope is to good enough.
I want to get published in Japan so i can establish a wider audience for my work.
Also to pay homage to those that have inspired me.
I respect Manga and Anime artist. I wouldn’t be here today if it weren’t for them and their art form.

i think cross culture publication is an important thing.

It helps other people understand and see that we have many things in common.

Art is a lifestyle to be shared with everyone. i think.

[extriandreamer]

just remember that the style of manga started as a cutlural thing, so don't sell yourself short and ignore your natual (perhaps western) style. try to find the balance and discover what is really your own, unique style

[Ayokillyou]

If you want to pay homage to Japanese artists, the best way to do that would be to keep it real for yourself and your own culture. They don't draw from right to left to be cool--that's just the way Japanese is written and read.

Pay homage by coming directly from the heart, directly from your own experience and if it was meant to be, it was meant to be.

[oni/tenshi]

It's not that I want to do it RtL just to jet published in Japan, and I'm not doing it just to be cool, to me it just seems like anything drawn manga style doesn't feel right unless you read it RtL (even if it is made by Americans)
So I don't think you should call people wannabes just because they want to do something differently.

Am I sounding weird?:confused:

[UrbanRevolution]

If you want to pay homage to Japanese artists, the best way to do that would be to keep it real for yourself and your own culture. They don't draw from right to left to be cool--that's just the way Japanese is written and read.

Pay homage by coming directly from the heart, directly from your own experience and if it was meant to be, it was meant to be.

i always have and always will..... thanks

[Ayokillyou]

It's not that I want to do it RtL just to jet published in Japan, and I'm not doing it just to be cool, to me it just seems like anything drawn manga style doesn't feel right unless you read it RtL (even if it is made by Americans)


If it seems strange to you, it's probably because you're so accustomed to reading Japanese comics that right-to-left seems normal. Except that no matter how you accustomed you are to the right-to-left experience, English reads from left to right. Period. Japanese write the other way around because that's their language, no other reason.

[fragileflower]

i like the japanese style mangas. is it right to keft. yea it is. i'm soo used to it now.

[Alphonse Elric]

right to left is always better

[Shamdu]

to right. The only modern languages I can think of that read from right to left are Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, and Hebrew, and even so, there's not really a very big market for comics in the Arabic or Israeli world (unless maybe they're hate comics aimed at each other -_-).


Dunno about arabic countries, but here there's a rather large and steadily growing anime/manga fanbase.... You know, there are other things over here than just wars. >_>

Oh, and a funny fact: Whenever american comics get translated here, the art is flipped. XD

[Alphonse Elric]

Dunno about arabic countries, but here there's a rather large and steadily growing anime/manga fanbase.... You know, there are other things over here than just wars. >_>

Oh, and a funny fact: Whenever american comics get translated here, the art is flipped. XD
really? thats so werid.. :D

[Shamdu]

really? thats so werid.. :D

LOL maybe. XD

I guess it's because while the anime\manga market is growing, the superhero comics market is still pretty small. :D

[Alphonse Elric]

LOL maybe. XD

I guess it's because while the anime\manga market is growing, the superhero comics market is still pretty small. :D
lol but i never knew that they flipped stuff like that.. man that would confues me if i didn't know how to read it

[extriandreamer]

It's not that I want to do it RtL just to jet published in Japan, and I'm not doing it just to be cool, to me it just seems like anything drawn manga style doesn't feel right unless you read it RtL (even if it is made by Americans)
So I don't think you should call people wannabes just because they want to do something differently.

Am I sounding weird?:confused:
no you're not sounding wierd, i really understand where you are coming from. just do your stuff the way you want for the right reasons.

[Alphonse Elric]

yah... u are starting to sound werid

[extriandreamer]

yah... u are starting to sound werid
be nice to him

[gynocrat]

there's not really a very big market for comics in the Arabic or Israeli world (unless maybe they're hate comics aimed at each other -_-).
So basically all we Heebs and Towel heads do is hate so much that nothing else matters, correct? I'm sorry, but this is the most ignorant thing I've heard on these boards. In my short time at these boards Crispy you've become the equivalent of wet sand in my bathing suit. I've avoided snarking with you on occasion and just started ignoring you because you’re like a walking-talking-poke in the eye; yet this time you've really ticked me off.

Please keep your sweeping generalizations about my culture, and other cultures to yourself. Thank you.

-Tina

[Alphonse Elric]

be nice to him
well he wanted to know.. so i told him.. i didn't mean to be rude

[crispy]

So basically all we Heebs and Towel heads do is hate so much that nothing else matters, correct? I'm sorry, but this is the most ignorant thing I've heard on these boards. In my short time at these boards Crispy you've become the equivalent of wet sand in my bathing suit. I've avoided snarking with you on occasion and just started ignoring you because you’re like a walking-talking-poke in the eye; yet this time you've really ticked me off.

Please keep your sweeping generalizations about my culture, and other cultures to yourself. Thank you.

-Tina

Sorry, but that wasn't a generalization. The Arab world was funding a competition to create a comic to make fun of the Israelis as a reaction to the comics published by the Dutch. I'm sorry you thought I was making fun of your culture -- I wasn't. I was talking about that.

Regardless... I don't particularly care what you think about my opinions. I don't set out to offend anyone by what I say, so I'm sorry if I offended your culture -- but as for everything else, I stand by what I say.

[ParaKiss]

Okay, that's strike two for this thread. I don't want to read anything vaguely rude again or this thread will be locked.

I respect your opinions and I know its a free world and you all have the right of free speech and all but there are times when you should just keep your opinions to yourself.

[Shinigamiyoko]

I'd say left to right probably, since you'd probably find it a lot harder to draw and keep the general flow of the book going when you're not writing in a style that you're not completely and overall used to.
Of course, I can't make you do left to right, or right to left, so in the end, it's really up to you.


The whole right to left thing is good as a way to see the original art unflipped and everything, but it was a bit ridiculous when Scholastic's book order forms we got at school made a huge deal out of the fact that Rave Master was published in unflipped format. There was a spiky yellowish bubble that had a thing in it that said something to the effect of "Cool! This book reads right to left!". It was almost like they thought we were five year olds that saw something different, and said "COOL!" and snatched it up like hotcakes.
...But that's just what I thought about the whole thing anyway. It might have gotten some people to buy it because it was unflipped, and true to the original art.

[Tsukiko_Sango]

they will publish it r-l if u draw it that way:p

[Shidda]

R t L seems to make a lot of sense to me cause I'm left handed.And when I draw like a manga or doujinshi L t R I always find my hand smudging what I just drew(really annoying when inking...ugh..>-<''.....it's evil)But personally I don't really care which way it goes as long as I'm comfortable with it and I can express my story the way I want it.I've always been pretty good with switching back and forth(one time I found myself writing with my right hand without even realizing it until someone pointed it out...and afterward I was like "that's why it felt weird!!O.O") But I think the creator should do what feels comfortable to them.I hate being forced to do something just because everyone else(assigned busy/homework for example) I will be me and no one else.I guess I just like being different.

[Netta]

Well, I didn't read through the whole forum (It's HUGE!!!), but I heard that it doesn't really matter wether you write it right to left or left to write, since it can be flipped on the computer.

Let's say you have it on pc (your text bubbles and sound effects all on different layers), then you can simply mirror view the page! Then put back the text and change the sound effects and v-walah!

[feder]

I personally don't see any problem with publishing something right-to-left. I know for me it feels more natural reading any kind of comic right-to-left, even if our society does it the opposite.
It's really up to the publisher though.

[.Sage the neko]

I read things R-T-L, I can't realy help it, I even draw R-T-L, cause, well I was drawing that way since I was around 10 ^^;;, and it just fills natural. I read that way too. I remember picking up a book and I was "Wtf?" when it came out as gibberish.

In truth either way works for me. (L-T-R is alil harder for me some reason.)

[tomselleck69]

it's not necessarily a correct assumption, but the first thought that comes to mind when i see an american manga written right to left is "who are you trying to impress."

[.Sage the neko]

Tom, did you make your avi?

To stay on topic, though, I wonder if the way you feel more natural has something to do with the brain?

[tomselleck69]

no, i stole it from bryan lee o'malley.

[Ayokillyou]

Memory lane...

You know, re-reading this thread, I still have more unresolved issues with the opposition.

For one, I take a little bit of...offense?...to the idea that someone would do something counter-cultural (ie, draw backwardly from their natural reading orientation) in order to appeal to a "larger audience." But all the while bypassing their native audience. Before one becomes interested in tackling a so-called "wider audience," one should tackle the wide audience in this culture. Japan is not what legitimizes a comic. MoCCA Art Festival is coming up in a month (everybody in or around NYC should be there, I'll be there, you better!) and I see everyone from dedicated comics fans to casual festival-goers and they're all curious and open minded to reading something cool. These people speak English. What you're saying when you bypass them is that they're like...not important enough even though we all speak English. Entertain your peers, entertain your countrymen, entertain the people who are most likely to see your work. Do not try to cater to a god that doesn't even aknowledge your existence. (Analogy: this situation always reminds me of people kneeling and praying desperately to a diety that doesn't care or simply doesn't exist.)

Much of my philosophy regarding comics has been centered around accessing greater markets. But never at the cost of one's primary and secondary markets. Never at the sake of one's innermost reality. No matter how accustomed an English reader becomes to the idea of reading in reverse-direction, it is still an unnatural storytelling experience and it doesn't do the job of reflecting the natural experience that comics are supposed to have. Remember: the Japanese never thought it was "cool" to write from right-to-left. They just do. English goes from left-to-right. It just does. Do the math.

For the sake of accurate translation, right-to-left is a good policy when dealing with Japanese comics, but it serves absolutely no purpose when dealing with native English. The idea of trying to make it accessible to Japanese readers frightens me; they do not care. They have their own comics literally littering the subways of their cities, they have comics vending machines, they have comics up to their necks. The Japanese, from what I've read are less interested in foreign comics than the Americans are interested in foreign film and foreign music. A few minor inroads into the Japanese market have been made by American cartoonists, yes. But none of them got there by affecting a Japanese visual "accent." They got there by being awesome. Concentrate on becoming awesome.




I feel like a bully because I realize that a lot of you guys are young and being heavily influenced by what you're looking at (ie, Japanese comics), but I think that y'all are getting your priorities out of order.

Also, I can't help but feel that some folks' perspectives would change if they read a few native Western comics and graphic novels. Stuff like the Flight anthologies, Pogo by Walt Kelly, Love and Rockets by the Hernandez Brothers, Maakies by Tony Millionaire, Tintin by Herge, Pounded by Brian Wood and Steve Rolston, the Mome anthologies, the Meathaus anthologies. I wonder if people would be so in love with reading and writing right-to-left if they saw the awesome Western stuff that exists.

[Shamdu]

But none of them got there by affecting a Japanese visual "accent." They got there by being awesome. Concentrate on becoming awesome.


I really like this quote. :p

Instead of trying to make your manga like every other manga out there and think that's what will make it popular since it "pleases the crowd", try to make it better than what's out there.
For example, I'll take one of my favorite mangas, One Piece - it's completely different than so many other mangas (Though it's still heavily rooted in classic shounen elements...) but it's the most popular manga in Japan today. It seems to me that the author didn't try to make it just like any other shounen - he tried to make it different, better, grander, and it's a totally awesome manga.

I hang out a lot in the webcomics scene, so I got to se a lot of amateur mangas. So many of them seem to aim so low - just a dull copy of their favorite works. A comic like that won't get very far IMO. ^^;

As for the right to left thing, I find it really weird.... If you're writing in english, write from left to right, if in japanese/hebrew/arabic/whatever, write it from right to left. What's so complicated about it? :confused: (But then again, I'm pretty used to switching reading directions all the time depending on the language... So it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. ^^;)

[Pedes]

The industries for movies in countries other than American (and I guess India) are very small. Even in Europe, they import movies from each other. The same can really be said for music. Sure, other countries have their own music industries – but since we’re America, we inundate their markets with our own stuff.
That is paradosally true. And with comics too. And European comics are different that both Japanese and American ones :D (I find my style a mix of European and Japanese comics...).

As fro RtL or LtR:

All reading right-to-left or left-to-right is a matter as simple as the fact that most of people are right handed. So most natural way of writing is left-to-right, because you don't smudge what has been already written.
Japanese is basicly written up-to-down, so smudging wasn't a case, therefore it could easily go right-to-left. But let's have in mind that when writing horizontally they also go left-to-right.
To my mind if you're not in culture that draws comics right-to-left and you're right-hander it's most sensible to draw left-to-right because you don't smudge what has already been drawn. If you're left hander, the case may be different depending what's more comfortable for you... because LtR you will smudge your pictures...
As for reading both ways seem natural for me (for comics) I just check on wich side is the front cover ^^ but I really hate FLIPPING. If it was drawn RtL leave it that way!

[chriswithchrist]

I like the right to left concept because that is how the Japanese read and I feel it is in keeping with the culture.:)

[Kajika]

This thread is getting out of control me thinks o.O

When I first started buying manga, about 6-7 years ago of course I bought left-to-right. That's because that was all that was available and it was because publishers thought that keeping it in its original format would be too confusing for readers. Since then, publishers such as VIZ have actually taken titles like Tenchi! and republished them right-to-left due to demand. Like it or not, people want to read manga right-to-left. Walk into a comic store and 80% of the manga or above is right-to-left.

To say I started out reading it Western and that's what I'm sticking to seems a little close-minded. People should experiment and find what they like doing.

I draw manga right-to-left, not because I'm a Japanese wannabe. I don't pretend to be. I can't speak or write a word of Japanese. I only draw it in that format because I enjoy doing it. To say to someone that isn't Japanese that they can't draw right-to-left just seems racist to me. People should be encouraged to learn more about other cultures and if drawing manga helps someone understand Japanese then there's nothing wrong with that.

[YamPuff]

The Japanese, from what I've read are less interested in foreign comics than the Americans are interested in foreign film and foreign music. A few minor inroads into the Japanese market have been made by American cartoonists, yes. But none of them got there by affecting a Japanese visual "accent." They got there by being awesome. Concentrate on becoming awesome.
I said almost the same exact thing on this thread:
Our OEL's in Japan??? (http://messageboard.tokyopop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2553)
It's similar in content to this thread; some of u might want to check it out.

I don't really know what to think about this whole LTR vs. RTL thing. (geheheh; no, not lord of the rings)

It's pretty much exactly the same thing; mirror images. If it works well one way, it work well the other way. Think of flipped manga. It reads pretty much just as well as unflipped even though we might get annoyed at its being modified. It's not that deep a subject, IMHO

[Comic_Burn]

at the risk of being attacked by a certain "high school kid with a cat avatar"-

Comics are art. Art is a creative expression of the artist. If he wants to draw sequential art friggin upside-down thats his choice. So many haters out there who think that they know everything.

[Murasakivie]

Personally, I find it easier to draw left-to-right. I don't understand how you can find it easier to make the pages flow drawing in a direction opposite to the way you read/write. Placing panels and bubbles in English from right-to-left makes the page comes out really clunky. You can even see this in some really well-done, translated manga.

[Pedes]

I don't really know what to think about this whole LTR vs. RTL thing.
I don't see a problem here either. *shrugs*
(geheheh; no, not lord of the rings)
L(O)TR rules :D
SO that would mean.. Left to right ;P

[Tsuzuki]

what do i say?
write it any way you want. it's not the direction it's in that counts but the plot and drawings in the manga.

[Comic_Burn]

Based on the fact that he has some degree (I'm not sure to the exact extent) of experience in the comic industry, seems to have a fairly good mass of tissue between his ears, and has done a bit of research into the industry he hopes to work in.

I don't always agree with Crispy, but from my own experiences and research, he's quite often correct.

I really hope this is supposed to be some form of sarcasm

[Ayokillyou]

I really hope this is supposed to be some form of sarcasm

Why can't you just say you disagree? Why is it so inconceivable that Crispy could be correct and that a good number of people would agree with him?

[Pedes]

I thought about it for a while (read: my mind drifted towards the topic while I was making cocoa)...
If you look it is a bit chaotic...
X:"You should draw ltr because it's natural in out culture"
Q: "but it's more natural for me"
y: but it's not natural in the culture...

Uhm?
OK, what I think (becasue I actually thought):
I don't give a damn in what direction you draw as long it's clear how to read it. As for "natural in the culture" - well I'm ltr culture too, but from the moment I could read I browsed through magazines from right side... So I'm not convinced about the "natural" thing...
Ithink when considering wich way to draw you have to consider why you have doubts. Do you want to be so "cool like japanese" and draw rtl? Then don't do it. But maybe it feels more natural to you, maybe you're left-hander and hate it when you smudge and rub off previous panel with your hand while drawing the next one? Then why not? Why to force yourself to do something the way you find it more difficult?
I find both ways ecually easy/difficult for me. I've read and analysed as much manga as other comics and it seriouslly doesn't bother me that much wich way the panels go. I admitt I draw LtR (LOTR!!!!!!!! GANDALF!!!!!!) my originals, but when it came to small fancomic (2 pages) I did it RtL because I wanted to give the honours to the creator. AND If I did any more doujins I'd probably make it RtL. Why? Because... why not?
More important than RtL or LtR (LOTR!!!! My preciousssss!) is if your narration/panelling is clear. And do not forget that!!!!!!!
Why can't you just say you disagree? Why is it so inconceivable that Crispy could be correct and that a good number of people would agree with him?
Because people prefer petty arguments to constructive discussion (and it's easier that way too).
Anyway Crispy, and come to it you too, is a contoversive person here :D (I'll probably soon join you -_-)


*random thought* Iheared that Hiroaki Samura refused for his manga to be flipped and they had to cut and paste all the panels... Was it in America? Because in my county it's non-flipped (yes I am mortal enemy of flipping!)

[Kenji08]

Keep it right to left and nobody gets hurt.

[YamPuff]

Keep it right to left and nobody gets hurt.
Ouchie. >o<
Liar!

:)


In the end, Tokyopop wants only English format manga, right? So there's really no point in even discussing this. They're the publishers.. they know best. IMO, they're the same both ways if you're a good enough artist. If you asked CLAMP to draw RTL, they probably wouldn't have too hard of a problem with it and certainly not all this controversy. I don't see why its such a heated topic. But that's just easy going ol' Yamfuwafuwa-chan.

[tomselleck69]

Keep it right to left and nobody gets hurt.
on the contrary, i will hurt people.

[Tsuzuki]

wonderfull......now people r hurting others over a direction in which his/hers manga should go?
we have reached a new low. *sigh*

[Pedes]

wonderfull......now people r hurting others over a direction in which his/hers manga should go?
we have reached a new low. *sigh*
Now we should make a thread to fight over whether manga is black-and-white or white-and-black :D

[gynocrat]

I find some people saying it's natural for them to read right to left sort of strange. I'm Jewish and one of the things I always hated about growing up was having to write the Hebrew language (=_=), as an American, left to right is natural for me--not an aesthetic preference. I think I'd be more inclined to understand if one said, I prefer to draw this one, it's my choice--as opposed to them trying to say...I was raised stateside but I just don't get the whole left to right thing. ^_^;

Are there publishers who produce works for English-speaking drawn right to left? I thought that trend was dead.

[gynocrat]

Now we should make a thread to fight over whether manga is black-and-white or white-and-black :D

:D Duh man, it's so white and black...that's the whole counter-clockwise appeal of it, you know? :)

[lpmaniac]

Well, I'm extremely new (1st post. Yay!), and you may not care what I have to say, but after reading this, I feel I should say something.

1. I am from Eastaboga, Alabama (Meaning I am almost in the middle of Redneck Villa...) and I am an avid Anime/Manga fan. I was a little offended at the comment about close-minded rednecks (although that wasn't the exact wording, it was similar) But I unfortunately have to accept that the people I'm surrounded by have given us a bad name...

2. Now back on topic, I love to write and draw in traditional manga format. It just feels really natural for me. I don't do it to prove anything, or to become a "japanese wannabe". I do it because it is a lot more comfortable to me. Also, I'm attempting (poorly...) to learn Japanese, so that may have something to do with it. I understand where a lot of you are coming from. If we read L2R normally, shouldn't we do our manga the same way? I personally don't think so.

it's not necessarily a correct assumption, but the first thought that comes to mind when i see an american manga written right to left is "who are you trying to impress."- tomselleck69

I don't see why doing your manga R2L is trying to impress anyone. I look at any manga that catches my eye and who's summary is interesting and looks good. Whether it written L2R or R2L I don't personally care. I think that it's the artists' choice. Anyway, I've rambled for long enough, and I guess I'll talk to y'all later!

Ja ne.

P.S. And I say it's Black-and-White. ^_^ Hehe

[mich2491]

Will Tokyopop publish amerimanga right to left?
Because I've got a really good story, and I would really like to have it published the traditional Japanese way.

It just doesn't fell right to read it the other way...:confused:

Please help!
lol not tomake fun of you or any thing like that what you say about right to left then look at your pic at bottom it left to right lol.still not to make fun of you or anything like that just notice:)

[mich2491]

wow a red neck that is or has good tv now im happy ny grandpa and grandma and allmost my hole family are in redneck area and nothing good out there no anime or magna for miles and they dont want to get cable or satlite tv so im gald for you yes most people dont think that way of rednecks:) yes i allways found it better right to left makes it diffenrt more single things do stuff and its hard to say what i think of it but i like it r2l more fun

[Andyhep]

If you want to draw your manga the wrong way to how the publisher usually prints it then go ahead! What's the problem? Hit the "flip horizontal" command before you send it (oh, and before you letter it, too!).

[KaYoKitten]

Hit the "flip horizontal" command before you send it (oh, and before you letter it, too!).
XD Great idea, Andyhep. I'm sure that would work just fine.

The reason you write/draw left to right is because that is how you were taught. The reason you WANT to draw right to left is because that's how you read it in the style you want to draw IN. The problem with that is, it goes against your first natural instinct. MOST OEL manga-ka find this a rather confusing thing. You know what my suggestion is?

Find OEL manga you enjoy to the fullest. Find indi-comics. Find comics. Find old flopped manga. Find the things you enjoy reading in the more "natural" way. Liking to read manga the original way the story was written is great and all, but you must understand--you're not Japanese. You're not writing your story originally in Japanese, nor are you drawing it as a Japanese person would view it. Your natural drawing--your natural way of writing and reading--is left to right.

Doing it any other way is liking stating that you're not what you are--you're American, or German, or Australian, or Canadian. Your language is written left to right. Unless you can say that you've lived in Japan, speak and write Japanese as well as you can in English (or German or French, etc.), then you can get by on me with drawing it right to left.

A good friend of mine attempted it--she ended up confused and her story was confusing. But now that it's being drawn left to right, it's a great story--and I can't wait to read more.

[TheBohemian]

Actually, I started drawing manga right to left. Sure, I'd never even HEARD of the concept of OEL at the time, and thus didn't know that it COULD be done that way (it honestly never crossed my mind!lol), but mostly it was just easier for me since I'm a lefty (HA! I say to you all!)and I'd be less likely to smidge my pictures that way. :p

[mast3r0fsn3ak3rs]

Well, in my case, drawing manga from right to left is way easier than drawing left to right(I've yet to discover a way to write nicely from left to right WITHOUT smudging the damn pen ink...moving on).I'm left handed, you see, and drawing manga is easier for me to do, when drawn from right to left. So, maybe if the artist in question is left handed, right to left format is what comes easiest to him or her.

[SkullKihd]

i like right to left better too
its easier to draw cuz im left handed and my drawings dont smear....which i can solve with tissue paper under my hand too....soo....nvm

[Pedes]

If you want to draw your manga the wrong way to how the publisher usually prints it then go ahead! What's the problem? Hit the "flip horizontal" command before you send it (oh, and before you letter it, too!).
*cough*Well, YOU are a good artist, but flipping art sometimes it a killer for it if it's not perfect...
You know, Hiroaki Samura didn't agree to flip his art and it was cut and pasted *grins*

[Tavisha]

I'm a lefty here too~ I work in non photo blue pencils that are pretty much smudge resistant and for inking I use micron (sakura) pens and I hold them just a tad higher up so my hand doesn't rest against the paper~ I've made 3 vols. of ShutterBox this way for TokyoPop and I'm well into the 4th vol. Even though I am a Japanese American and enjoy my manga from Japan in its correct original format, I strongly feel if a book is produced specifically for America, or in the west, etc. the best way, and more logical way is to create it in the format proper for that country. If you were specifically creating a doujinshi for Japan then I'd say sure~ go ahead and make it in the Japanese format. ^________^

[TheBohemian]

Oh. Well, I dunno about anyone else who's posted here as a lefty, but myself, I meant that I draw it right to left. Literally. :p

All my pages are READ left to right (at least I hope so! lol), but I actually put them on paper in the wrong order. Most of the time I have a blank piece of paper under my hand anyways, or a small towel, to keep it from smudging, but my hand is a heavy little bastard and I generally move it around a lot more than my bristol. Drawing sideways is just weird for me...

I've tried using non-repro blue pencil, but again my heavy hand gets in the way, and I tend to press down too much for it to be worthwhile. :(