To the Artists: Story Plots

[holywa]

When you think of an idea, do you start on the actual manga before or after you have your ending? Tell tell plz. :D

[crispy]

To pitch your story to Tokyopop in order to get a book deal, you have to have an ending in sight. American manga doesn't work the way Japanese comics do.

[rivkah]

It depends on the story. :) "Steady Beat" was prescripted, but it's changed since I've started working on it, so the ending has changed slightly as I go along. However, with other ideas I've already started working on (or finished), sometimes I have an ending in sight and sometimes I don't. O_o

So I guess that wasn't much help. ^_^;

[KaYoKitten]

For a professional company like TP, I'm positive that you really have to have a good beginning, middle, and end all fleshed out before you start. You prolly also have to have turnabouts of at least the top two or three main characters and a good idea of who they are. I'm guessing you'd prolly also have to have at the very least the story written down by main points. TP isn't messing around.

Most people here doing this aren't CLAMP--you can't stop in the middle of a series and not complete it simply because you're bored with it. ^^; These are all speculation, but I'm pretty certain they're accurate. TP is a corporation, like any other, they're in this for their profit and for yours, and profits don't come from incompleted or sketchy works.

It's almost like a geological gold dig--if you aren't SURE there's a vein beneath the surface, it's unlikely you're going to get investers to dig for it.

[rivkah]

For a professional company like TP, I'm positive that you really have to have a good beginning, middle, and end all fleshed out before you start. You prolly also have to have turnabouts of at least the top two or three main characters and a good idea of who they are. I'm guessing you'd prolly also have to have at the very least the story written down by main points. TP isn't messing around.

Very perceptive! *^-^* That's what's called our "style bible" which contains series synopsis for both the whole series and each book, character turnarounds and summaries, any necessary backstory, and renderings of any pertinent objects or backgrounds. Another really important part of the style bible are character expressions which include six major expressions used by each primary character. IMHO, that's my favorite part because it really brings your players to life and gives them the personality you'll be needing to start the book. This is all also useful for pinning up on the wall to keep for reference and consistency down the line.

[holywa]

so when you pitch an idea you already have to have an ending? It's fine though if you come up with another one though right( as long as it doesn't interfere with the current story..or something)?

I wanna dig for gold!:eek:

[rivkah]

so when you pitch an idea you already have to have an ending?:

It certainly helps to have a destination in mind when on the road less traveled. But you're right, sometimes things come up and your destination changes. What happens if TP decides to keep a series going or end it short? These are all questions that go through a writer's mind as they're creating a series, and there are no set-in-stone answers. Kinda vague, I know, but is ANYTHING ever set in stone? The fans don't know how we originally plan to end our series, so if the opportunity comes up to extend and change it, I can't see why TP would deny that.

Though personally, I prefer to read series that stick below 8 volumes.

[KaYoKitten]

I thought as much. I have something similar for my novel (written, not drawn, unfortunately, and as yet unpublished), like little phrases each of the characters likes to say. (My fave is Lex's: "This is detrimental to my mental health.")

I'm fairly certain that your editor would be able to help you if you decide to change the story a little, but if it goes waaaaaaay off the trodden path and changes half the story you haven't drawn yet, you might wanna back yo' truck up some. Changing the story late in the game isn't a good idea, especially when you've gotta draw/write at least three volumes--that's a LOT to consider.

If I recall from an obscure interview I read once, the Naruto creator has an entire page of just common faces that Naruto makes, plus eyes. I think that would be a really good idea, especially if you've got varying eye designs for each character. I try my hardest to get a variance of eye, nose, face, and body shape in each of my characters. If it's a short story, I try and generate a visual of the characters as to how they are placed in the story.

In my entry for TP's RSoM this past entry, Jirkle (the guy) was trying to show Bri that he loved her, but he wanted her to discover it for herself. Bri was very tomboyish (and EXTREMELY dense), and wore loose clothes that she basically swam in. She was flat-chested and had muscles, which very few manga girls do. She was also baby-faced, to show that she still had a lot of growing up to do. Jirk, on the other hand, was tall and gallant and wore a cape and cloth that draped around his waist to look almost like a skirt. You've got to think about that kind of stuff before you ever even think of thumbing your comic, let alone penciling it.

[Ixis]

As far as writing goes it's usually best to think up the ending first before the beginning or middle. If you have a solid and interesting idea for the ending you can write a solid beginning, and then you can fill up the middle with all kinds of twists and turns you setup in the beginning based on the ending.

Of course you technicaly can go in any order ending-beginning-middle works the best in most situations.

Also it's good to have some idea of a great twist ending because what if you're pitching your story and you have the editors attention and they ask "so what happens next?" A great ending can leave a lasting impression (like the Sixth Sense.)

And if we're talking about required materials perhaps some people might try a pitchbook over standard portfolios. I know a lot of people have been asking what they should show TP when wanting to pitch a series and some people have suggested head and body rotation, set design and some other stuff. If that's the case why not go ahead and do a pitchbook you can give to the editors? A pitchbook should have...

- logline and synopsis summary
- character/facial turnaround (front-side-back-3/4 front) [for 1-3 characters]
- facial expressions [for 1-3 characters]
- set design (overhead grid layout maybe and/or a full rendering)
- prop design (font-side-back-3/4) and full rendering
- most important, finished sequential pages (4-6 pages)

You can make a pitchbook by putting together a .pdf document and printing it off at Kinkos or even Cafepress (but they're slow and the paper's kinda cheap, even if it is easier than most printshops. Depends on the budget.)

Also for head expressions try to include shoulders if you can. A lot of people go ahead and just draw disembodies heads with fice different ex[ressions but you can bring out even more emotion by the position of the shoulders, and it isn't an illegal move or anything so go ahead.

[Ayokillyou]

As far as writing goes it's usually best to think up the ending first before the beginning or middle.

I like to say that a story IS its ending. I mean that essentially, the entire point of a story is its ending. If you leave home one day with no place in mind, you might end up somewhere interesting...but most likely, you'll just end up doing nothing. You have to know "okay, I'm going to go do such-and-such." The point of telling a story is to communicate an idea. It can be a singular idea or it can be a complex idea with many smaller parts. But you have to want to say something before you start or else, you'll get lost.

If you have a solid and interesting idea for the ending you can write a solid beginning, and then you can fill up the middle with all kinds of twists and turns you setup in the beginning based on the ending.

Yes.

Also, a pretty easy way to acertain the beginning of a story is to determine where you want to end up and throw your characters WAY on the other side of the spectrum. A journey to the store is no fun if you're standing outside of it already! So start your story on the other side of town, right? Analogies are fun.


...
And if we're talking about required materials perhaps some people might try a pitchbook over standard portfolios. I know a lot of people have been asking what they should show TP when wanting to pitch a series and some people have suggested head and body rotation, set design and some other stuff. If that's the case why not go ahead and do a pitchbook you can give to the editors? A pitchbook should have...

- logline and synopsis summary
- character/facial turnaround (front-side-back-3/4 front) [for 1-3 characters]
- facial expressions [for 1-3 characters]
- set design (overhead grid layout maybe and/or a full rendering)
- prop design (font-side-back-3/4) and full rendering
- most important, finished sequential pages (4-6 pages)

You can make a pitchbook by putting together a .pdf document and printing it off at Kinkos or even Cafepress (but they're slow and the paper's kinda cheap, even if it is easier than most printshops. Depends on the budget.)

Also for head expressions try to include shoulders if you can. A lot of people go ahead and just draw disembodies heads with fice different ex[ressions but you can bring out even more emotion by the position of the shoulders, and it isn't an illegal move or anything so go ahead.

I agree. A lot of preproduction work should be done, and while it won't be seen by most people, it shows in the final product when the artist has a full understanding of his or her imagined storyworld.

[Ixis]

Not to mention a pitchbook has everything already packaged up nice and neat Even if you're stuck in a huge torrent of people trying to hand off they're ideas to an editor at a con all you'd have to do is hand the editor a pitchbook with a flashy cover. Crude but simple in case you don't have time to show your stuff to everyone everywhere.

[holywa]

:) wahh, all this nice info. thanks!

Where do you guys start your stories then? From the ending or from random inspiration( i think there was a forum for this somewhere)? Also, what kind of endings do you guys usually go for( creating wise and reading enjoyment)? Happy endings? Realistic endings? No ending ending.. etc. ending.

[Samekh Mem]

Well, I got my latest idea from researching a Medieval art motif! Which somehow led to a science-fantasy story set in modern Victoria city. But hey, it gives me an excuse to draw dead things and guys with wings!

For the ending.. it's kind of predictable right now. The hero always kills the villian, you know? But I'm sure I'll come up with something. :( It's not entirely a happy ending at all, and I like to leave readers thinking and pulling their hair. (But not in such a way as they're confused and annoyed!)

[KaYoKitten]

Oddly enough, my story is inspired by the following:

Lyrics in the Linkin Park song "Forgotten": A little piece of paper with the picture drawn/Floats on down the street till the wind is gone

A single phrase from Tim Burton's "Corpse Bride": The sea leads to many places...

The fact that I grew up watching sailboats, tugboats, and huuuuuuge Navy aircraft destroyers in Norfolk, Virginia.

The fact that I'm obsessed with the ocean, in particular sharks (I was once attacked by a lemon shark!!).

One of my classes, Resources of the Earth, and the fact that my instructor gave us this little tidbit of info: Some crude oil can actually be so clear and see-through that you can use it as gas for a car (altho it is highly not recommended!!).

A few more things to do with obscure history facts that I memorized, in particular to do with Amelia Earhart.

Aaaaand...that I'm in love with the idea of the Bermuda Triangle.

My story is a love story, and a Writer-meets-Artist story. It's also a rescue story, so I have the predictable rescue situation, but with a nice twist that I hope everyone will love! ^__^

And yes--I really did combine all that together into a story...^_^;

[zetsui101]

I usually come up with my stories by listening to music. I usually get some pretty wierd things in me head about different stories.

"Ice Blue Eyes" from Rurouni Kenshin gave me an idea just this morning ~^.^~ "Rise" by Origa gave me a story idea a while back too. It just depends on mood too. A lot of the characters I've drawn are very dark and kinda moody. Usually when i worked on them, there was that kind of atmosphere in my room ^^ jj...

also, thinking about people that are in your life everyday whether it's a small or large role will spark a creative idea for a story.

hope this helps you! :D

[zetsui101]

actually, i have a question too. what qualifys a plot line as shoujo or shonen manga? i thought it was the art style that did it too, but some OEL manga has thicker lines than japanese shoujo. so, wouldn't the story plot make it shoujo or shonen too? :confused:

[Alexis]

I like to say that a story IS its ending. I mean that essentially, the entire point of a story is its ending.

Well, personally I disagree with this when it comes to manga. In manga, the ending is perhaps the least important thing. Manga isn't a movie where the whole thing is leading up to an explosive twist of an ending. Manga is written more like a TV show where the first episode lays out the concept and with each additional episode we develop the characters more and more. Some manga span 100s of chapters, why is the final one more important than all that came before? And manga is almost always started with no idea on how it will end. I personally think you shouldn't even worry about the ending, focus your time making the beginning as solid as you can. Who's gonna read until the end if the beginning is no good? For manga, it's about the journey and not the destination.

[Ayokillyou]

Well, personally I disagree with this when it comes to manga. In manga, the ending is perhaps the least important thing. Manga isn't a movie where the whole thing is leading up to an explosive twist of an ending. Manga is written more like a TV show where the first episode lays out the concept and with each additional episode we develop the characters more and more. Some manga span 100s of chapters, why is the final one more important than all that came before? And manga is almost always started with no idea on how it will end. I personally think you shouldn't even worry about the ending, focus your time making the beginning as solid as you can. Who's gonna read until the end if the beginning is no good? For manga, it's about the journey and not the destination.

A proper story is an abstraction of a theme or belief held by the author, depicted through a dramatic cycle in order to either prove a point or simply make a statement.

The ending of the story is where the author fully reveals his or her thematic point. Without ending, a story is no more than an amusing meandering. And there's nothing wrong with an amusing meandering. But it's not a story-story.

However, I don't see that this stops manga (or television shows) from qualifying. Episodic manga are still hinged on individual stories and story arcs which contain complete dramatic cycles. So even when an overall manga continues for decades in episodic repetition, the series very often contains many proper stories within itself.

My original point stands: even if you want to continue your characters after a story arc, the story arc is still a complete article. My point is, each story (whether it's a one shot novel or an ongoing sitcom) needs a point...a purpose...a direction, a reason for being. Take Seinfeld. Supposedly, a show about "nothing," but each episide is about something. And each story comes to some point that the authors (Jerry Seinfeld and Larry David) want to make about life, existence, etc.

[Alexis]

The ending of the story is where the author fully reveals his or her thematic point. Without ending, a story is no more than an amusing meandering. And there's nothing wrong with an amusing meandering. But it's not a story-story.

Can you give me an example of this in popular manga? I personally would say that manga is supposed to an "amusing meandering." There's no way that chapter 542 of Inu Yasha is going to be able to fully reveal a thematic point. And the story has failed if it takes that long to do so.

[Akemi]

Well, personally I disagree with this when it comes to manga. In manga, the ending is perhaps the least important thing. For manga, it's about the journey and not the destination.

Took the words out of my mouth. ^^ There are few manga i've read that have actually finished. I was always dissatisfied with the endings I read. That's when I realised what I loved about manga, it's the characters and themes dealt with that made me want to know more. How it ends... it'd be nice to have a solid ending but that's not my focus anymore.

Most Western stories are linear, based on the Hero's Journey, a specific goal must be reached otherwise all that came before doesn't really matter. It's a huge disappointment to the reader if there's no resolution.

I think it's a matter of if the plot drives the story or the characters.

[Tavisha]

actually, i have a question too. what qualifys a plot line as shoujo or shonen manga? i thought it was the art style that did it too, but some OEL manga has thicker lines than japanese shoujo. so, wouldn't the story plot make it shoujo or shonen too? :confused:

In Japan, it is the story/plot/theme that determines whether or not its classified as shounen or shoujo. I think its treated similarly here in the US as well, only I've observed that more female creators in the states seem to enjoy creating their shoujo/josei with a thicker line art which is considered more shounen art style by Japanese manga tradition. However, the style of art and gender of the creator(s) do not always fall under traditional gender lables for the type of manga they're creating. A very good example is Chobits by CLAMP. Even though CLAMP (all women art team) illustrates it in a very shoujo art style (thin line art with elaborate clothes with delicate trimmings, etc.), it is not considered a shoujo. Because of its plot and themes, Chobits was intended for an older teen boys audience and is considered a shounen manga in Japan. Rumiko Takahashi has created her most famous works for the shounen audience as well, and even draws in the thicker line art style more traditional for shounen. An example of a male mangaka creating a shounen story, but drawn more in the traditional shoujo art style is Fujishima Kosuke who is famous for his manga Ah! My Goddess.
I hope this helps your confusion. ^________^

[RikkiSimons]

Well, personally I disagree with this when it comes to manga. In manga, the ending is perhaps the least important thing. Manga isn't a movie where the whole thing is leading up to an explosive twist of an ending.

You're very right Alexis. Movies are often just about the destination, while manga are closer to novels, and are more about the journey.

When we pitched ShutterBox to Tokyopop in 2002, we never told them the ending. They still don't know the end and they've been very gracious to let us simply have our journey.

-Rikki

[KaYoKitten]

You're very right Alexis. Movies are often just about the destination, while manga are closer to novels, and are more about the journey.

When we pitched ShutterBox to Tokyopop in 2002, we never told them the ending. They still don't know the end and they've been very gracious to let us simply have our journey.

-Rikki

You can DO that?! O___O Cooooool....^^; Sorry for making a lame remark, but I find that to be absolutely defining of TP's OEL strategy. I think manga is all about the journey because that is a very Asian concept. Also, think, think, think about it: Do you really want your life's end to be what your life is all about? You want your life to be all about your death? No! No one does. If I may quote: "Our future is etched in stone with every breath we take." Life is about the breaths and moments, not the ends or even the beginnings. That's what makes manga so appealing, IMHO. It's about life.

[Ayokillyou]

Can you give me an example of this in popular manga? I personally would say that manga is supposed to an "amusing meandering." There's no way that chapter 542 of Inu Yasha is going to be able to fully reveal a thematic point. And the story has failed if it takes that long to do so.

Umm...we're not on the same page. Double check my post, please.

I don't see that this stops manga (or television shows) from qualifying. Episodic manga are still hinged on individual stories and story arcs which contain complete dramatic cycles. So even when an overall manga continues for decades in episodic repetition, the series very often contains many proper stories within itself.

See?

It's all there. Even a long-running serial like Inu Yasha contains complete and solid story arcs. Just like on television. While the overall characters remain, each individual scenario is a statement of authorial intent.

even if you want to continue your characters after a story arc, the story arc is still a complete article. My point is, each story (whether it's a one shot novel or an ongoing sitcom) needs a point...a purpose...a direction, a reason for being.

So what I'm saying is whether or not a creator chooses to write and draw countless, adventures for his or her cast of characters has no bearing on whether each unit of story telling (whether an episode or a complete several-episode story arc) is written with a point in mind.

[Tentopet]

You're very right Alexis. Movies are often just about the destination, while manga are closer to novels, and are more about the journey.

Hmmm maybe this is where my storytelling really differs. While my favorite part is the journey, not the ending, I still think it's important to have the ending in mind before starting your first page. I don't like "series" as much as story arcs, like trilogies in films and whatnot. My favorite thing about Paradise Kiss was that it ENDED. And the ending was so amazing!!! It left me wanting more, instead of leaving when the party was over. And I think the journey there was that much more exciting simply because it didn't feel like "The Adventures of Caroline and the Misfits". It was all going somewhere certain. I don't know; I just think that having the ending planned makes everything fit together by the end--that makes you go "Aha!" I LOVE that. So when I wrote my story I really thought of it as a film trilogy...not that I've ever SEEN a drama trilogy...hey, they should have those!!

But I mean, this is my own opinion--not trying to say I AM THE MOST RIGHT PERSON IN THE WORLD!!!

[Alexis]

How do we know that Yazawa Ai had every little detail about the ending thought out when she started the series? Most mangaka work on series for many, many years, seems like it would work against them to come up with the ending in the few months they spend on initially creating the concept of the series.

I'm sure most mangaka will have a general idea of the ending, Luffy finding One Piece for example, but to have the final chapter all thought out... There's really no point in that at all.

[Tentopet]

Not saying you have to have every last detail planned out, but I do think Ai Yazawa had a good idea on the ending, and not just the ending, but the whole last book (not that it started out as a book but...). Everything came together and every character became much deeper, and much was explained to have all those previous books make that much more sense. I could definitely be wrong, but I do think this is the way she works. Even with an interview I read in Shojo Beat about what she had to say about Nana, it sounded to me like she very much has an ending in mind when she starts.

I'm not saying that people who write without an ending in mind write crappy stories...some people can do it. And I even like some stories that are more serial. But my biggest complaint about manga is that overall it feels very run-on. Again, this is just my opinion.

[zetsui101]

I'm not saying that people who write without an ending in mind write crappy stories...some people can do it. And I even like some stories that are more serial. But my biggest complaint about manga is that overall it feels very run-on. Again, this is just my opinion.

some series can't manage to find an ending and seem like, "when will it end?!?!" but I've only run across one series that is like that for me.

[QueenieChan]

My, I've resisted posting on this forum in an effort to do more work, but I succumbed in the end. :P

It's odd someone would use movies as a comparison, because I'm greatly influenced by movies in the things I do. "The Dreaming", for example, was written as if could have been a single feature-length movie, completely with a 3-act structure and all, which fits perfectly well into the 3-book deals TOKYOPOP has been handing out. That's not to say that other types of manga can't be written, and quite frankly, I've been wanting to write longer ones, but that is ONE way to adapt the 3-book thing.

Other people have said that manga are more like novels, but in actuality I like it because it straddles both mediums. You CAN make it like a novel, but you can also ham up the cinematic aspect of it and make it like cinema. That was something I did in "The Dreaming to a large extent, hence the detailed backgrounds. I felt the need to strongly root my characters in a specific environment.

So, really, it's all very flexible. :P

[QueenieChan]

I'm not saying that people who write without an ending in mind write crappy stories...some people can do it.

Actually, Hayao Miyazaki does all his stories without an ending in mind when he starts. Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away and the excellent Nausicaa manga is like that. But then Miyazaki is different, because he doesn't so much do "manga" as he does do films, and even his manga has a more European rather than Japanese influence.

Perhaps this ties in with my earlier spiel about movies. Miyazaki is probably able to do that because his stories are movie-length, and has to fit within a certain running time. If you're writing for a narrative that is timed in about 2-hours, then there is a kind of internal narrative arc that you have to follow. Miyazaki doesn't quite follow it to a tee, but it's still there. Exception: Howl's Moving Castle. When it comes to narrative arc, everyone has their misses too, I guess.

And I even like some stories that are more serial. But my biggest complaint about manga is that overall it feels very run-on. Again, this is just my opinion.

There are many great stories that are serial. Being a serial story is nothing on the quality - it's the tendency to "pad" scenes and draw things out that bothers me about manga too. Alot of people feel the same way. It's more an editorial thing rather than anything on the side of the mangaka - stories that could have been 10 volumes get turned into 20.

The REAL problem with drawn-out manga stories may not even be the fact that it's drawn out, but the way such stories, such as Kare Kano, are released in Western markets. Originally, they were released chapter by chapter in anthologies, over a long period of time, and so readers then did not mind the slow pace of the story as much. However, collect it into volumes and have people who never read the original anthologies read them... the slow pacing becomes GLARING. This kind of manga was not meant to be released single volume by single volume.

...Whch brings it to an interesting contrast with the OEL manga. Because of the way OEL manga is made, with huge gaps between each volume and no chapter-by-chapter release, you end up in a situation where you'll have to tie up certain plot strands in each book before you get to the next, especially if you have an ending planned. Not everyone does it that way, ofcourse, but I did it with "The Dreaming", because I felt that with only 3 books (all with page limits), I had to tell the story with all the "fat" shaved off.

Because your readers will read each book, in one go, with no breaks or anticipations in between. And so the slightly self-contained aspect is important, lest plot threads fly off in all directions.

If someone starts an anthology for OEL, then things will once again change quite dramatically, namely in the writing and plot structure department. I would like that. :D

[Tavisha]

It's odd someone would use movies as a comparison, because I'm greatly influenced by movies in the things I do. "The Dreaming", for example, was written as if could have been a single feature-length movie, completely with a 3-act structure and all, which fits perfectly well into the 3-book deals TOKYOPOP has been handing out.

Hi Queenie~! Speaking of being influenced by movies... Have you heard about this new horror film called The Woods (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/news/comments/?entryid=292790) coming out this year (maybe)? It looks like they've been trying to release it since 2005. Anyways, I found the core concept and theme to be really close to yours in The Dreaming~ >____<*** I swear all the muses sit around a special club to chat up and exchange ideas. (which I'll be discussing in future SB issues) XD

[zetsui101]

...The REAL problem with drawn-out manga stories may not even be the fact that it's drawn out, but the way such stories, such as Kare Kano, are released in Western markets. Originally, they were released chapter by chapter in anthologies, over a long period of time, and so readers then did not mind the slow pace of the story as much. However, collect it into volumes and have people who never read the original anthologies read them... the slow pacing becomes GLARING. This kind of manga was not meant to be released single volume by single volume...

so, is that why series like Inuyasha take forever to be released in the US and the anime is way ahead of the books? (the newest release(s) of the Inuyasha manga introduces the Band of Seven. the anime is dealing with a demon named Hoshiyomi. the Band of Seven, sadly, is already past news for Inuyasha and the others)

[Tentopet]

Actually, Hayao Miyazaki does all his stories without an ending in mind when he starts. Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away and the excellent Nausicaa manga is like that. But then Miyazaki is different, because he doesn't so much do "manga" as he does do films, and even his manga has a more European rather than Japanese influence.

So THAT'S why I don't really enjoy Miyazaki's films LOL. Loved Kiki's Delivery Service, haven't seen Nausicaa, but seen most others. Better not rant on it or I'll really piss people off haha!

[QueenieChan]

Hi Queenie~! Speaking of being influenced by movies... Have you heard about this new horror film called The Woods (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/news/comments/?entryid=292790) coming out this year (maybe)? It looks like they've been trying to release it since 2005. Anyways, I found the core concept and theme to be really close to yours in The Dreaming~ >____<*** I swear all the muses sit around a special club to chat up and exchange ideas. (which I'll be discussing in future SB issues) XD

Gorsh, that's quite surprising! XD In my case, I was asked to do a haunted school story, so my story stemmed directly from that. I have no idea where this story came from, but it seems quite different from mine. It sounds like a mostly psychological horror mood piece... which is cool. "The Dreaming", on the other hand, involves native aboriginal myths, and is quite different in it's approach.

And besides, if there's any movie that influenced "The Dreaming", it'll be "Picnic at Hanging Rock". :D You should discuss it in your SB issues - I'll definately be interested.

[QueenieChan]

so, is that why series like Inuyasha take forever to be released in the US and the anime is way ahead of the books? (the newest release(s) of the Inuyasha manga introduces the Band of Seven. the anime is dealing with a demon named Hoshiyomi. the Band of Seven, sadly, is already past news for Inuyasha and the others)

I don't know the PRECISE reason why Inuyasha and/or stuff like the Naruto manga is being released so slowly, but PART of the reason is that the Japan-savvy folks are always one-step ahead of the translation companies. Naruto's up to, what, vol7? I've read up to volume31, and I ain't going back to buy the English version when I can get the up-to-date Chinese one. Inuyasha I've just seen vol40 of, and while I have no interest in it, the Band of Seven IS ancient history.

How long will it take for the translation companies to catch up with the Japanese Naruto? Eternity, at this rate. If you're a Naruto fan, you'll just go online and download free scans. Yes, not paying to read manga is bad, but you can bet the fans are all complaining that they're not getting their most recent dose of Naruto, and that the English Shonen Jump is too expensive for something they can get online for free.

And what's more, anyone who follows Naruto will eventually find themselves looking for scanslations online, once they become a fan. Even if they started watching the dubbed version on TV and knows nothing about "manga" in the first place. That's what fans DO - they go online, start researching, discover a whole new world and go off the deep end.

But then that wasn't my original point. My original point is that alot of popular Japanese manga are DESIGNED for a WEEKLY format, and their plot structure and slow pacing reflects that. You can call it "bad", but that's because you're reading it in a way it's not originally DESIGNED to be read it. Trust me, if you're not doing a weekly format in Japan, you'll get works that are quite different in plot structure and pacing. I've read tonnes of manga that were released in a single-volume format, and THESE don't go on forever.

So, the moral of the story is: Publishing format MATTERS. It's something you really have to think of when you're creating a story.

So THAT'S why I don't really enjoy Miyazaki's films LOL. Loved Kiki's Delivery Service, haven't seen Nausicaa, but seen most others. Better not rant on it or I'll really piss people off haha!

Quick!! Everyone kill TENTOPET for blasphemy! XD Maybe it's because you don't seem much of a fantasy fan, Tento. From what I see, the fantasy fans are always enormous fans of Miyazaki, no matter what he does. You know his stuff is of a good quality - it just depends on whether that kind of thing appeals to you.

[Tentopet]

I like sci fi and fantasy, when it's GOOD. Haha! (yup I'm definitely going to be murdered in my sleep, especially when you read the following:)

Seriously, it totally makes sense to me now--Miyazaki's films totally feel like they're made up along the way. He's all, "Hmmm, let's randomly pick something...OH! I like punching bags! Let's turn this guy into a punching bag, right at the end, and explain that that's what he's been all along. I'm sure there's some super deep symbolism some randumb fan will come up with and everyone will fall for it! Piece of cake."

I mean, trust me, I like crazy plots. I love unique things. Unico (the first and second ones were the ones I grew up on) would be an example of how to have a unique plot, maaaaybe even have some randomness mixed into there, but it all works. OR THE LAST UNICORN! (man, apparently all Miyazaki has to do is make a story about unicorns lol)

That said, I STILL watch Miyazaki's films...but it's for the art, not for the story.

[rivkah]

So THAT'S why I don't really enjoy Miyazaki's films LOL. Loved Kiki's Delivery Service, haven't seen Nausicaa, but seen most others. Better not rant on it or I'll really piss people off haha!

Uwa! That IS blasphemy! :eek: In response to Queenie Chan, I'm not a fantasy lover, but Miyazaki is a brilliant storyteller with characters that feel real no matter what setting. He has a very humanistic approach and little distinction between black and white. It doesn't seem to be the plot that so much drives a Miyazaki film as it is the characters.

Mato Hagio has a similar approach in her manga.

[KaYoKitten]

I mean, trust me, I like crazy plots. I love unique things. Unico (the first and second ones were the ones I grew up on) would be an example of how to have a unique plot, maaaaybe even have some randomness mixed into there, but it all works.

^^; This is actually one of the many reasons WHY I love manga so much. It honestly DOES take so much time to make it, and you've gotta have fun with it or you honestly stop. I define manga as the oxymoron "organized chaos" just for this reason. Miyazaki films are one of the many reasons why I still watch anime, though not as often as I used to. He really does seem to make up things on the fly, but if you go back through and watch it again, you can see little hints and clues about it long before it shows up.

So he IS planning it--it's just so wild and bizarre and wonderful that you get caught in the moment instead of the full image at first. ^_^ My fave example of this so far is the character Turnip-head in Howl's Moving Castle. But I shan't give any clues away other than that--you gotta buy and watch it yourself! :P

[rivkah]

Seriously, it totally makes sense to me now--Miyazaki's films totally feel like they're made up along the way. He's all, "Hmmm, let's randomly pick something...OH! I like punching bags! Let's turn this guy into a punching bag, right at the end, and explain that that's what he's been all along. I'm sure there's some super deep symbolism some randumb fan will come up with and everyone will fall for it! Piece of cake."

That's very interesting you view it that way. I've personally always felt that the symbolism in Miyazaki films is quite intentional, even in the minutae. He especially appears to use animals to portray his views on humanity (Pom Poko is RIFE with this kind of symbolism) as well as objects. "Howl's Moving Castle" seems like the only one that had a lot of random symbology in it, but then again . . . that was originally a book by another author, which may explain some of its flaws.

Also, a lot of symbolism is difficult to pick up on if you aren't a part of Japanese culture--it's interesting hearing commentary on his films from Japanese friends because there's so much context that's lost in translation.

[nicolepalmer]

I think translation is a major part in what people think of stories.When you watch an anime or read a manga that has been screwed with i guess you could say the japanese version could be a totally different story.ecspecially if it is aimed at a younger audience and its a good story that an older person would like to read the older person may notice younger may not.oh yah

I love the last unicorn.....*feels guilty*

[Klawzie]

Well, I think by "lost in translation" Rivkah didn't mean "the translator messed up" but more like "the cultural differences were too great for us to 'get it'."

Kind of like... mmm... an in-joke. Only most people in the culture are 'in' on it, but those who didn't grow up learning that sort of history or that old song or that nursery rhyme or don't watch that show that's so hip and in and in the moment.

[nicolepalmer]

yeah i know ,but i wanted to put my two senses in on the topic anyways:p

[QueenieChan]

I like sci fi and fantasy, when it's GOOD. Haha! (yup I'm definitely going to be murdered in my sleep, especially when you read the following:)

Seriously, it totally makes sense to me now--Miyazaki's films totally feel like they're made up along the way. He's all, "Hmmm, let's randomly pick something...OH! I like punching bags! Let's turn this guy into a punching bag, right at the end, and explain that that's what he's been all along. I'm sure there's some super deep symbolism some randumb fan will come up with and everyone will fall for it! Piece of cake."

What sort of sci-fi and fantasy do you like? I never watched Unico, so I don't know. But I'm genuinely curious. I'm wondering whether you'll dislike works like Tezuka's "Phoenix" as well.

And which Miyazaki movie involves punching bags? If you're talking about "Howl's Moving Castle", that was a huge mistake, and every director makes a miss sometimes. I would rate that movie "for the fans only". It's a far cry from the best examples of his work. I'm thinking of "Porco Rosso", "Kiki's Delivery Service", "My Neighbour Totoro", "Laputa" and "Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind" (the manga moreso than the animation). "Laputa", especially, is a perfect example of a well-planned, strongly-executed story. I don't think he made Laputa up along the way - what I said about his methods only applies to his later films.

His work can have strong elements of fantasy in it, but it doesn't always have strong symbolism. "Princess Mononoke" has it, but that's a departure from his usual storytelling, though it's a great story, told with an agenda in mind. "Spiritied Away" has symbolism, but that's because it's set in a dream-like fantasy world and is at heart, a very primal story about a little girl separated from her parents. And "Howl's Moving Castle" was a far-out miss.

But as Rivkah says, it's his humanism that really makes the world go round, and drives fans crazy across all 7 continents. He's something of a spiritual double of Osamu Tezuka, minus the wacky sense of humour, but with an ecological bent.

PS. Pom Poko wasn't made by Miyazaki... it's definately NOT Miyazaki-style. It's by his long-time Ghibli colleage Takahata. And Takahata made "Grave of the Fireflies", which is one of the greatest war movies ever made. EVER. For someone who has seen so many war movies, that is heavy praise indeed. Go see it now. Bring plenty of tissues though.

I mean, trust me, I like crazy plots. I love unique things. Unico (the first and second ones were the ones I grew up on) would be an example of how to have a unique plot, maaaaybe even have some randomness mixed into there, but it all works. OR THE LAST UNICORN! (man, apparently all Miyazaki has to do is make a story about unicorns lol)

If we're talking about the same "Last Unicorn" as I, the one about the unicorn being turned into a beautiful human princess, and not liking it, you may be surprised. The people who animated that story were Japanese, and went on to form Miyazaki's Studio Ghibli, so Miyazaki was undoubtedly involved in that production in some way. So, Miyazaki already made a story about unicorns. :P

[RikkiSimons]

Hmmm maybe this is where my storytelling really differs. While my favorite part is the journey, not the ending, I still think it's important to have the ending in mind before starting your first page.

I do love a good ending. For example, the giant Santa coming down from space to be sated by giant cookies was the perfect ending for Invader ZIM, and I often think directly of that scene whenever I remember my time on the show. But while we were working on it, the ending wasn't so important. We do have an exact ending in mind for ShutterBox, but we try to forget about it along the way so as not to weave too many predictable elements into the story. Because of the time it takes to make these books we often come across paths we didn't know our characters were capable of taking and I feel it's important we take those paths no matter the predetermined ending. I have a philosophy that everything in life, including writing should happen naturally and intuitively, like water flowing down hill. I may know the water will eventually meet the ocean but I don't concentrate on the ocean until it's important.

I love the Last Unicorn. It's one of my writing influences.

-Rikki

[YamPuff]

Personally, I have to know everything about a story before I start to write or draw it. Its just the way I am; a perfectionist obessive-compulsive freak.

[Tentopet]

I do love a good ending. For example, the giant Santa coming down from space to be sated by giant cookies was the perfect ending for Invader ZIM, and I often think directly of that scene whenever I remember my time on the show. But while we were working on it, the ending wasn't so important. We do have an exact ending in mind for ShutterBox, but we try to forget about it along the way so as not to weave too many predictable elements into the story. Because of the time it takes to make these books we often come across paths we didn't know our characters were capable of taking and I feel it's important we take those paths no matter the predetermined ending. I have a philosophy that everything in life, including writing should happen naturally and intuitively, like water flowing down hill. I may know the water will eventually meet the ocean but I don't concentrate on the ocean until it's important.

I love the Last Unicorn. It's one of my writing influences.

-Rikki

Well, I can understand that, then. I mean, you don't want to feel like every part of the story is part of an agenda, contrived so to speak. And you really can't dictate over your characters. So I get what you're saying.

Queenie: Go watch Unico!!!!!! It's actually a Tezuka creation :) The first one's terribly cute and sweet; the second is actually where all my childhood nightmares stemmed from (scariest villain EVER), but is absolutely touching. I didn't know Phoenix was an animation! I'll see if I can find it.

My least favorite Miyazaki films so far have been Princess Mononoke and Howl's Moving Castle, so at least I'm on the same wavelength there :) The punching bag...that was sort poking fun at the end of HMC. BTW, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone besides myself NOT praise that film.

I saw Grave of the Fireflies, but it was sort of bad timing because I'd just found out some horrifying info about some kids I babysit and I wasn't ready to be depressed even more. So I was kind of angry by the end.

I don't know that cultures have to be THAT different that I can't identify with a film. Zhang Yimou's my favorite director and I didn't have to live in China to be touched by his films (of course, aren't most of the political ones banned there anyway?).

Hmm I really suck at pulling films out of my head (ever played that game Scattergories? I SUCK at that game...it involves identifying things that belong under a certain category, starting with a predetermined letter. Makes my head go blank). But lemme see, my favorite sci-fi films would have to be The Fifth Element and Dune (and book-wise I LOOOOOOVE the prequels to Dune, even more than the original books). And does Gattaca count? And I'm entertained by most popular sci-fi films, like Star Wars (I even like the new ones). Ooo! And Twelve Monkeys kicks some serious botox. Now that's a strange movie that TOTALLY WORKS.

Fantasy...it's hard with this one because I have a hard time identifying fantasy. I'm entertained by witches and elves like ya know Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, and those seem like quintessential fantasy to me. But if we're talking things involving anything magical/mystical, Mary Poppins is one of my favorite films of all time, anything by Tim Burton is cool (my favorite is Edward Scissorhands) and speaking of which I love stuff having to do with Roald Dahl (book-wise I memorized the BFG as a kid). Oh, and I like Flash Gordon, but that's mostly to laugh at and listen to cool music by Queen.

I also like a good superhero movie. Spiderman's my fav.

So yeah! I really do like sci-fi and fantasy, which is interesting, since so far I read mostly drama with manga, and I have no plans to write anything other than drama. I don't know if I have that ability to come up with new worlds. I didn't plan out universes in my head as a kid; I planned out kissing scenes ;) Kinda shallow; I know.

[QueenieChan]

My least favorite Miyazaki films so far have been Princess Mononoke and Howl's Moving Castle, so at least I'm on the same wavelength there :) The punching bag...that was sort poking fun at the end of HMC. BTW, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone besides myself NOT praise that film.

People don't dare criticise HMC because Miyazaki's fame in the West is long overdue, and all the critics feel bad for slamming HMC because they didn't hype him enough back when he was making "Kiki's Delivery Service". Or more correctly, they're all embaressed they didn't discover him earlier. It's not always a good thing, because then people will see HMC and think it's typical Miyazaki. No, it's not. It's Miyazaki at his worst (which is still better than alot of stuff out there).

Miyazaki's like Tezuka in that respect. Tezuka made alot MORE crap that Miyazaki, but even his crap is better than alot of people's. But ofcourse, it's his GOOD work that people look up to.

And ohhh, the Unico by Tezuka. I thought it was some Western "My little Ponies" thing. I'll just continue my hunt for the entire collection of Tezuka's work.

I don't know that cultures have to be THAT different that I can't identify with a film. Zhang Yimou's my favorite director and I didn't have to live in China to be touched by his films (of course, aren't most of the political ones banned there anyway?).

Zhang Yimou's gone mainstream... in a bad way. His best film was "Raise the Red Lantern" and "To Live" IMO, and I've been pretty disappointed by his recent efforts. He's not been political for a long time, and quite frankly, neither have alot of Chinese filmmakers. Now they want to make blockbusters. Nothing wrong with that, except they need better screenwriters. :P Besides, all the cinephile Chinese, Taiwanese, and Hongkers I know universally agree that Ang Lee is the best Chinese filmmaker.


So yeah! I really do like sci-fi and fantasy, which is interesting, since so far I read mostly drama with manga, and I have no plans to write anything other than drama. I don't know if I have that ability to come up with new worlds. I didn't plan out universes in my head as a kid; I planned out kissing scenes ;) Kinda shallow; I know.

Nah, it's not shallow. Everyone has different tastes; if you don't plan out universes in your head and you're not interested in such things, you don't have to do it. You're more likely to produce sub-par work that way, because to create fantasy worlds, you really need a PASSION for that kind of thing. If you're only mildly entertained by LOTR, and you don't feel a surge of passion at the idea of playing Word of Warcraft, I see nothing wrong with sticking to drama in the forseeable future.

Don't stick with what you know. Stick with what you LOVE.

[Tentopet]

Yeah, I failed to mention in my post that Zhang Yimou's sold out. Terribly sad :( I mean, his action films are better than most, but they're nothing compared to his dramas. My favorites are Not One Less, The Road Home and Raise the Red Lantern although I of course love To Live and I could go on.

So true--you really have to be into it to make fantasy or sci-fi. I love all the extras in Dune--all the appendices and maps and histories. I mean, that's being wrapped up, I tell you! Course, I'm surprised how wrapped up I am in my story. It's like my alternate world or something.

[Tavisha]

Course, I'm surprised how wrapped up I am in my story. It's like my alternate world or something.

I think that's a really good thing~ because you *are* creating an alternate world~~to be read and seen on paper. ^______^

[Gabycat]

I love the Last Unicorn. It's one of my writing influences.

-Rikki

awww didn't knew you were a fan of it as well, Rikki! One of my all times favorites! <3 :D

[headmistress]

The Last Unicorn is awesome. (Though I am VERY depressed that the DVD release was EDITED! Molly Grue's best line!) When I was a little girl I used to envy my best friend because she had the BOOK, and while she was very good about letting me borrow it I wanted my very own copy.

I have one now, though. ;)

Bridget

[sukezaemon]

Tentopet fears being turned into a puppet?

[Pedes]

You're very right Alexis. Movies are often just about the destination, while manga are closer to novels, and are more about the journey.

When we pitched ShutterBox to Tokyopop in 2002, we never told them the ending. They still don't know the end and they've been very gracious to let us simply have our journey.

-Rikki
You can do that? Becasue my story is going on well, except the fact that I'm not sure how exacly it ends ( I have a very vague idea only....

Naruto's up to, what, vol7?
MWAHAHAHAHA!
Sorry, but it's nice to hear that you're so behind to such a miserable country (when speaking of manga) as mine.. we're on 17 if I'm not wrong :D

Because of the time it takes to make these books we often come across paths we didn't know our characters were capable of taking and I feel it's important we take those paths no matter the predetermined ending. I have a philosophy that everything in life, including writing should happen naturally and intuitively, like water flowing down hill. I may know the water will eventually meet the ocean but I don't concentrate on the ocean until it's important.
I feel that too. So even if I know the general ending I don't decide about the details too early.

So yeah! I really do like sci-fi and fantasy, which is interesting, since so far I read mostly drama with manga, and I have no plans to write anything other than drama. I don't know if I have that ability to come up with new worlds. I didn't plan out universes in my head as a kid; I planned out kissing scenes Kinda shallow; I know.
Not shallow, just perfectly normal female.
As for me the culture was set to convince me that cute blond girls are supposed to be a princesses kidnapped and captured, or tormented and be a Good Girls That Tend To Be Helpfull Innocent And Helpless.
I somehow managed to get the first part, but then instead of waiting for the prince to set me free I set MYSELF free, kicked the Bad Guys ass and rode in the direction of the rising sun...

Now I can pretty well do what you'd qualify as shounen, can create worlds... but can't make a shoujo story worth a damn.. :|

[chaos dragoon]

Has anyone started with a certain story plot and after a while it suprizingly changed a bit? Sometimes I imagine big climaxes of a story and the end of it becomes clearer as the story I write progresses.

[SaiRong]

Besides, all the cinephile Chinese, Taiwanese, and Hongkers I know universally agree that Ang Lee is the best Chinese filmmaker.

My personal favorite is Wong Kar-Wai. That's one film maker who doesn't start out with the end in mind; supposedly he writes the script as he goes (if at all). He gets the actors to improvise the scenes, resulting in a totally different story than the one they start out with. It's not the best method, as it results in a lot of unused material (supposedly they shot over six hours of unused footage for 'In the Mood For Love'), but the stories that give rise from such a random method can be really amazing.

I agree with what Rikki says about following the characters. I like to plot out my story ahead of time, but I like to do it by figuring out what the characters will do. It's fun for me too, because it's like I'm being told a story as well.